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Okay, I promised I wasn't going to bitch or whine in here about the archives for at least two months and I'm trying to be good. So instead of whining about things, let me just say that after a series of... ahem... colourful mails from an author concerning rejection letters and the contents thereof, I have some comments, observations and questions.
One of the things Leah and I find with the archive is that a lot of authors really struggle with punctuation, particularly the punctuation of speech and the failure to use full stops, leading to run on sentences. In fact, we found that these sorts of errors were so common that we sat down and wrote the 'Minimal Quality Guidelines' for Wraithbait, which set out the kinds of things we reject for so that authors could be forewarned.
It's still happening, and after it happened again last night, with associated... colourful e-mails, I started to wonder whether a) it was me, b) it was them or c) it was the state of teaching these days.
So in order to make sure it wasn't me, I asked around the office to double check my understanding of the correct way to punctuate speech (because I tend to doubt myself a lot :)) and not one of the six people I asked, all professionals and educated to near or graduate level, picked the answer I thought was right.
It made me doubt myself so much that it wasn't until another colleague pulled a novel out that she was reading at lunchtime to confirm that, yes, I was right, that I started to relax.
But it made me think rather hard about the whole 'grammar' thing and just how important readers of fanfiction find it. I know how important I think it is - very - but am I just weird and grammar obsessed? Also, while I think that grammar is important in the finished, 'published' work, I don't think that it's the only tool in the writer's box, and probably not the best tool for the job of actually writing a story. That takes that 'spark' of creativity, and in writing fanfiction it also takes a good eye for the characters and a good ear for their dialogue and the way they interact with each other, and the ability to reproduce that in a story.
I do think, however, that any writer who hasn't got a grasp of the technical aspects should get a beta reader who has that grasp to look at the story before posting. After all, while grammar can be learnt and it's more difficult to learn the other aspects of writing such as plotting, pacing and characterisation, errors in grammar are the easiest things for a competent beta reader to spot, point out and convince an author to change before posting.
At least that's my take on it :)
So I thought I'd conduct a poll to see what other people thought.
The poll is open to everyone, and I'm going to make this post public so anyone can take it. I am, however, going to keep the results private to me for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I don't want people's responses to be influenced by what the majority answers are at any point in time, and secondly, I do know that not everyone has the same grasp of grammar, nor should they (see my point about beta readers above) and I don't think it's fair to make all those answers public.
In other words, I'm looking for honesty.
I'll leave it open a couple of weeks, and then I'll anonymise and summarise the results.
And it's guaranteed that this post will contain multiple spelling, punctuation and grammar errors :) Posts like this always do. Can I blame it on the fact that I'm bloody freezing and my fingers are like icicles?
Brrrrrr.
[ETA: The reason that I'm asking for whether your first language is English, American English etc is that it has been claimed that punctuation of speech differs - in fact, one of the 'colourful' e-mails was about how unfair it was to impose American English grammar rules on an English author. Sucked, then, that she had the story read and commented on by someone who's English. As opposed to the other non-US admin ::g:: So while I'm pretty damned sure that American grammar rules don't differ from English, Australian or Canadian on this point, I'm trying to confirm that :)]
[Poll #658517]
One of the things Leah and I find with the archive is that a lot of authors really struggle with punctuation, particularly the punctuation of speech and the failure to use full stops, leading to run on sentences. In fact, we found that these sorts of errors were so common that we sat down and wrote the 'Minimal Quality Guidelines' for Wraithbait, which set out the kinds of things we reject for so that authors could be forewarned.
It's still happening, and after it happened again last night, with associated... colourful e-mails, I started to wonder whether a) it was me, b) it was them or c) it was the state of teaching these days.
So in order to make sure it wasn't me, I asked around the office to double check my understanding of the correct way to punctuate speech (because I tend to doubt myself a lot :)) and not one of the six people I asked, all professionals and educated to near or graduate level, picked the answer I thought was right.
It made me doubt myself so much that it wasn't until another colleague pulled a novel out that she was reading at lunchtime to confirm that, yes, I was right, that I started to relax.
But it made me think rather hard about the whole 'grammar' thing and just how important readers of fanfiction find it. I know how important I think it is - very - but am I just weird and grammar obsessed? Also, while I think that grammar is important in the finished, 'published' work, I don't think that it's the only tool in the writer's box, and probably not the best tool for the job of actually writing a story. That takes that 'spark' of creativity, and in writing fanfiction it also takes a good eye for the characters and a good ear for their dialogue and the way they interact with each other, and the ability to reproduce that in a story.
I do think, however, that any writer who hasn't got a grasp of the technical aspects should get a beta reader who has that grasp to look at the story before posting. After all, while grammar can be learnt and it's more difficult to learn the other aspects of writing such as plotting, pacing and characterisation, errors in grammar are the easiest things for a competent beta reader to spot, point out and convince an author to change before posting.
At least that's my take on it :)
So I thought I'd conduct a poll to see what other people thought.
The poll is open to everyone, and I'm going to make this post public so anyone can take it. I am, however, going to keep the results private to me for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I don't want people's responses to be influenced by what the majority answers are at any point in time, and secondly, I do know that not everyone has the same grasp of grammar, nor should they (see my point about beta readers above) and I don't think it's fair to make all those answers public.
In other words, I'm looking for honesty.
I'll leave it open a couple of weeks, and then I'll anonymise and summarise the results.
And it's guaranteed that this post will contain multiple spelling, punctuation and grammar errors :) Posts like this always do. Can I blame it on the fact that I'm bloody freezing and my fingers are like icicles?
Brrrrrr.
[ETA: The reason that I'm asking for whether your first language is English, American English etc is that it has been claimed that punctuation of speech differs - in fact, one of the 'colourful' e-mails was about how unfair it was to impose American English grammar rules on an English author. Sucked, then, that she had the story read and commented on by someone who's English. As opposed to the other non-US admin ::g:: So while I'm pretty damned sure that American grammar rules don't differ from English, Australian or Canadian on this point, I'm trying to confirm that :)]
[Poll #658517]
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Like:
,It's raining.'
(I don't have a non-English keyboard so can't reproduce them very well :))
I do remember reading that after Chinese, English is one of the most difficult languages to learn because there are so many exceptions to the rules and because the rules are so confusing.
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eg.
... regnet", sagte er.
Er sagte:
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Despite all of this, I do have a copy of the Holt Handbook and other writing guides that I consult, at least when I can find them. I use beta readers and tell them to be merciless, especially on the technical problems so that I can learn to improve my work. I do make an effort, although it can be confusing and difficult, and I do believe I'm improving, if only incrementally.
The reason I'm babbling on is that while I'm not an expert, I still get annoyed by bad grammar and punctuation. Yes, it does get to the point where I'll stop reading a story. Obviously I let some writers and stories slide if the problems are minimal and the story is good, but I figure that if I can spot the problems then the writer needs some help. It seems like many writers (especially the younger ones) are even worse than I, or perhaps they just don't care. I cringe when I see "ill" instead of "I'll", or "would of" instead of "would've". There are even some who don't seem to grasp the basic idea that some form of punctuation is needed at the end of a sentence!
While I'm probably guilty of some level of badness in the technical side of writing, I have to say that I truly appreciate archives that screen for these sorts of problems. I believe this helps everyone. It helps writers improve their work and therefore provides readers with more quality writing to read, at least in theory. I really wish more archives would screen for basic literacy on the part of their writers - on many occasions I've given up on archives entirely because it seems like everything I try to read is so badly written that it makes me grit my teeth and start growling and wondering what the heck is wrong with education today.
So, a thank you from a reader who does appreciate the screening. If I were to write in the SG:A fandom (I'm considering it), I would probably submit my work to you folks. If it was rejected, I'd actually be happy that someone showed me where I screwed up and work with a good beta to fix it and try to avoid making the same mistake(s) in the future.
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Wait. I did have a point there, somewhere. *looks around*
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I'm sure it's not, because I have a number of American novels on my shelf, i.e. the US paperback version rather than UK.
I do know from discussions with
So a Brit would write something like:
It was - to pardon the pun - grammariffic.
Whereas they've told me that Americans would write it something like this:
It was--to pardon the pun--grammariffic.
I know Des was ranting about why people insisted on putting spaces in the thing once (to which I nervously cleared my throat and pointed out it was probably a Brit thing ::g::) but I have to say that the latter one looks totally, totally weird to me ::g::
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And I think English rules are totally weird ::g:: I was reading up on them again today and I'm not surprised that so many people struggle with the punctuation of speech since speech is punctuated differently, in English, to partial quotations.
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I do understand that not everyone has the same level of technical skill, but it's about knowing where your weaknesses are and taking those into account I think. For example, I waffle endlessly so have to prune my fics and watch out for those pesky run on sentences :)
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:-)
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::hopeful look::
Not that I'm trying to palm it off or anything.
::is not looking shifty... honest, guv::
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er, I misclicked the radio button for number 1, thanks to my newfangled laptop touchpad. Just scoot my "vote" on down to the answer below it.
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My intolerance has only gone up since I got a job as a proofreader. Who says fandom can't get you anywhere?
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I know the feeling
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I'm no good at grammar and most of what I've learnt has come from using two or three excellent beta readers but what's going on?
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On reflection, I wonder if the problem is not that it is wrong per se, but that at junior or high school level English no one has explained to the pupils *when* it is wrong -- and when it is right.
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A poor user of grammar and punctuation
I suck at it, I just don't get it I guess. It's probably the main reason I hardly ever write. I have a lot of story ideas running around in my head, but I'm just afraid to write because I know my grammar and punctuation just well, SUCK LOL.
I've wanted to get a beta reader, but have to wonder if they would put up with my really really bad grammar??
As for the poll, bad grammar and punctuation don't really bother me. Maybe because I don't understand it enough to see it?
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What bugs me are the authors who just blatantly don't care. Honey, if you can't be bothered to go through and put capital letters in, then I can't be bothered to read it. In fact, the only thing I will be bothered to do is mock you mercilessly with friends.
There are times I feel like keeping some spare apostrophes and capital letters and then handing them out to the authors who have obviously left theirs on the bus somewhere.
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