Canon cannon

[alyse]

I've had this musing (I won't call it a rant, because I'm not in a ranty place and I don't think this is ranty :)) brewing for a while, because of a number of things - the discussions about Firefly, the discussions that have been revolving around the development of fannish love, and destina's new icon, about being a canon slut (which I love ::g::). Now that I've finished my new mood theme and am not in the grips of that obsession anymore, I finally have a chance to sit down and put my thoughts into some sort of order, prodded into it finally by luigifish's post about why she takes a while to dip her toes into a new fandom, and what's stopping her.

I'm a canon whore. This will not surprise anyone who knows me. I'm a canon whore like I'm a grammar, characterisation and spelling whore. Picky, in other words. For me, writing is an act of fannish love. I write because I not only love the characters and want more of them, but because there's something I want that I'm not getting on screen. For my last two fandoms, this has been slash, but it's not always been that way and I doubt it will always be that way in the future. So, given the fact that I want to explore what I don't see onscreen, why is canon so important to me?

It just is. It's that fannish love thing again. I simply can't understand those people who maintain that canon isn't important, or that you don't need to watch episodes in order to write fanfiction. For me, if I love the show enough to want to write fanfiction for it, why wouldn't I want to watch every single episode I can get my hands on? If you love the characters enough to write about, you love them enough to spell their names correctly, to correctly state their past, to build upon what you see on the show. And by God you have to watch the show - because you love them.

And yet there are those who don't feel the same way. Maybe they simply don't love the same way that I love. They don't appear to care about how many episodes they watch, or checking their facts - just look at how many different spellings of Kasuf, Sha're and Skaara there are in fanfiction (and on those names you get given leeway by me anyway, since movie canon and tv show canon differ, most noticeably for Sha're/Sha'uri). And I wonder why. It's a rare writer indeed who manages to capture a character after watching only two or three episodes, and I envy them. There appear, however, to be many more writers who simply don't care about canon, who simply want to tell the story they have in their heads, to get it out there as quickly as possible and to whom 'research' is an alien word. And is there anything wrong with that?

No, not in the sense of the fact that it is, after all, a hobby and anyone at all is entitled to write what they want, when they want and sod canon. In fact, let's sod characterisation and grammar and spelling too, while we're at it. It's supposed to be fun. And it is... for the writer. Because it's not much fun for me to read. No, I'm not going to go all 'police state' and dictate what people should or should not be writing. The most I have ever done is suggest to a friend that she might want to think about getting a grasp on canon before she launched into a new love, because her comments to me showed that she didn't have the first idea about it and, strange though it may seem, I was worried about her leaping into a large fandom making such a newbie mistake, particularly a fandom that has been around for years and can be vitriolic at times. And even then what I said was 'If you feel like you've got a good enough grasp of canon, go for it.'

I should be clear that I make a distinction between not having a grasp of canon because you can't see a show and because you can't be arsed watching a show - it's difficult to see CI5: The New Professionals for example, since it's never been sold to the States but the one writer who tried to write after only seeing a couple of episodes was torn apart by a certain portion of the fandom for her poor grasp of canon and her poor characterisation. It was never clear which camp she fell into, but in the end it didn't matter because her characterisation was so far off the mark, and her writing was lacking in other ways. And that, sadly, seems to be the case. Those who scream loudest that canon doesn't matter also seem to think that characterisation doesn't matter, spelling doesn't matter... etc, etc. Not always the way, of course, but it's like cheese and pickle... often found together in an unappetising sandwich.

AUs I see differently, at least intentional AUs. To me, an AU is a deliberate decision to veer from canon and in order to do that you have to know canon. I don't mean you have to be a geek, or analyse every nuance in every episode minutely, but watching a fair few episodes definitely helps. AUs that aren't deliberate are just bad. You know the ones... the ones where they become an AU simply by virtue of someone not considering canon or because they simply can't be arsed to do a little research. Or, you know, actually watch episodes. Oops. Almost let my inner bitch off the leash there. Oh, sod it. Letting her run free is so much fun. The ones that forget that Sam has one sibling, a brother, and that Daniel was an only child. And has them as long lost separated at birth siblings, adopted by different people. Or forgetting that Catherine is in her 70s in the movie (she was about 8 or 9 in 1924) and supposedly the same at the beginning of the TV show, which makes the possibility of her being Daniel's mother who gave him up for adoption (Daniel being 32 in 1997, meaning Catherine was in her 40s when she had him - not impossible but unlikely, and he damned well can't be Ernest Littlefield's son as he disappeared through the Stargate twenty years before Daniel was born). Those kind of AUs. Sloppy ones, ones that don't specifically start off as being an AU but then take that sharp veer because someone didn't care enough to do their sums.

I cringe at those because, to me, time is a finite resource and I simply can't bear to waste it on this kind of sloppy writing. It's not lack of opportunity to check canon, since there are resources out there, it may be lack of ability but often it's simply lack of care. That whole 'can't be arsed' attitude combined with the whole 'wouldn't it be cool' thing that I've ranted about before. And I'm left wondering why they feel the need to write fanfiction for the show, when they don't feel the need to watch it.

In some cases it may well be the 'ain't it cool' thing. In others, maybe they're simply so gripped with the love of the characters that they can't wait to write about it, which may go some way to explain the whole Firefly phenomenon. But what about established shows rather than new ones? Stargate, New Professionals, things that have been around for years? I've seen people enthuse about how much they love character Y because he's so much like character X in their favourite TV show, that they have so much in common. And my response has been 'What? The fact that they're both linguists?' because as far as I could see that was all they had in common. I've seen this before, too. To my mind, (and moving away from specifics to the general) if someone loves character X so much that they have to slot all other characters into boxes marked 'Like X' or 'Not Like X' then why aren't they simply writing about character X? He's their fannish love, the one they want to write about and in some cases make their own, personal property (like shellmidwife talks about) or, even worse, their own personal Mary Sue (another rant for another day). So why the need to write fanfiction for a show that they know little about? I could go on to talk about crossovers, particularly slash crossovers where you throw two disparate characters into bed together because in your opinion they would look hot together but I won't. I still want some people on my friends list to talk to me ::g:: But it still leaves my question. Why? Why do it?

I did wonder if it was something to do with fannish participation and the fact that there is still a heirarchy which puts the producers of fannish commodities on a rung above the consumers so that people feel pushed into producing fic in order to achieve some kind of status, but I'm not so sure that that's it either. Presumably, in order to have a stake in the community you have to have that fannish love, to have to have watched the show and want to share that love with others who are as obsessive. Actually, thinking about it, maybe that is part of it, because these days there is so much movement between fandoms with the same kind of hierarchies. So newbies to a fandom may feel the need to produce something straight off the bat in order to make a mark rather than lurking for a while. Attention seeking, in other words, where the knowledge of canon, or lack thereof, takes a back seat to visibility. And, of course, it works (much to my disgust - musesfool has an entry on why does badfic get good feedback here). But not from me, because it comes down to one simple fact.

If there are writers who don't think that canon is important, or who can't be arsed watching the show in order to grasp the basics never mind the nuances, why should I be arsed to read their fics? Especially not when there are writers who care, who agonise over how to fit their ideas into canon, writers who do take that time to get it right like minkboylove and destina and elke_tanzer and widget285 and... the list goes on and on and I love you all for it. Feed my addiction. I still remember Anais agonising over having to watch D&C repeatedly for Scratch and I felt her pain ::g:: The constipated puppy looks that Jack and Sam kept exchanging were, frankly, painful in the extreme. But she did it, and her writing shows the care she takes. So why should I be bothered about reading a story from an author who doesn't?

In short, I can't.

[Edit: widget285 has some taken one of my threads and added some very good points about the difference between fannish love and fannish infatuation here. Go read :) ]

Comments

[emony.livejournal.com]

There appear, however, to be many more writers who simply don't care about canon, who simply want to tell the story they have in their heads, to get it out there as quickly as possible and to whom 'research' is an alien word.

The names "Mallozzi" and "Mullie" spring instantly to mind

[alyse]

::snerk:: Yeah, that's a point. Is it worth ranting about the lack of care taken by Stargate fanfiction writers when the actual writers of the show show as much disregard for canon, to the extent of even spelling names differently between the TV show and the movie - an error that even predates M&M, although they are notorious for it, so much so that Robert C Cooper even called them on it at a con in front of an audience.

[elke-tanzer.livejournal.com]

Aw, shucks. I don't think I've ever been listed for anything in such excellent company! Thankee muchly.

Why deconstruct something before you understand what it is on its own merits? You might find that whatever you've built from the bricks is less beautiful, less sturdy, less artistic than the previously-interesting work that you bulldozed to get your building materials.

I'm a canon wench. No apologies, it's who I am. Even if I want to write something that turns canon on its head, I still feel that I need to fully understand what I'm turning on its head before I do it. The folks writing the best parodies understand the canon they're stir-frying, and it shows in their excellently hilarious work.

Otherwise, I'd have an easier (and more profitable, probably) time working on original fic. I mean, I'm thrilled that uber is making such a success of itself and all, but I'd rather read original than uber most any day, assuming I can find original original, rather than recycled original.

I'm also a researcher by nature, and that obviously colors my perceptions. When I want to learn something, I dive in headfirst and don't usually come up for air for days or weeks.

When I love a fandom, I want to wallow and gorge myself and feel full and satisfied. Especially with the fandoms I've fallen into in the past year or so, canon is rich and textured and interesting. Why not take advantage of that? The best fanfics seem for me to be stained glass windows added to an existing framework of a cathedral. Without them, the light streaming in just isn't the same, but beautiful windows without the walls they sit in are kind of pointless dustcatchers.

Every now and then I stumble across a crossover I find myself liking where only the characters from one fandom are in character, and the guest stars are out of character. Those stories are kind of like cotton candy. Sometimes it's nice, but if you eat too much, your tongue turns funky colors and then you feel sick. Eeew. And such food is never nourishing!

Whew. It's too early for this much thought for me, I'm mixing metaphors and similies and goodness knows what else somewhat murkily... where'd I put my coffee?

[widget285.livejournal.com]

Well, at the risk of starting another one of our gooey lovefests that are both cloying and embarrassing, I'll begin by saying, Amen, sista. I totally agree with what you said above.

My name is Widget and I'm a canon slut. Bite me.

Canon, like characterization, grammar, spelling are most emphatically not extraneous in my book. They are part of the fundamental package as far as I'm concerned. Granted, as you said, this is supposed to be fun. It's a diversion, not a vocation and the writer has the right to invest as much--or as little--of her time as she sees fit in the product she creates and disseminates to the fandom. If she wants to write something that conflicts with canon, where the characterization is totally off base where the grammar and spelling are slipshod, that is her perogative. It is, however, my perogative to *not* waste my time reading subpar fic. As you said, time is finite, it is precious. So why waste it reading fic that is carelessly written? My answer is I don't. I have a trash bin and I am not afraid to use it.

[luigifish.livejournal.com]

Ah, well, you've hit the nail on the head :)

I have come to the conclusion over the last few days that the reason why I'm not writing at the moment is because I've become obsessed with JAG. I've been reading all the fanfic, watching the few eps I can get hold of, etc etc etc. Now the fanfic is good but a lot of it has a version of Harm that I think is just a tad too syrupy sweet and doesn't reflect the more complex character on the screen. So, of course, I start thinking of writing my own (I'm getting NPs deja vu moments here - who was it who 'encouraged' me in this fanfic writing lark? :))

This of course isn't news to you *vbg* But I'm definitely suffering from the same problem you did when approaching Stargate fic - it's a bigger fandom, the chances are a lot of the fans have seen all the eps, in order etc etc. My chances of seeing all the eps are zero but there's a lot of info on the web so I can get it from there. So I guess I will just have to brave, drag out the laptop and see what happens :) But my biggest fear (apart from producing a crap, boring story) is that I will still make a huge cannon faux pas and someone will notice. But will someone notice? Do all the other stories I've read follow cannon? - I can't tell because I haven't seen all the eps. Or is the fandom / list fairly easy on those kind of things? Questions, questions, questions *sigh*

Still, better to be a cannon whore than not :)

Re Firefly - didn't realise people were writing fanfic already??!!

This is a really brilliant essay.

[zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com]

Also, I grabbed goodbye3 from your icons page.

Re: This is a really brilliant essay.

[alyse]

Thank you, and feel free to grab what you like :)

[alyse]

Why deconstruct something before you understand what it is on its own merits? You might find that whatever you've built from the bricks is less beautiful, less sturdy, less artistic than the previously-interesting work that you bulldozed to get your building materials.

I love this analogy. It perfectly captures what I was trying to say, much more elegantly than I did, and I love the analogy of stained glass windows too. Yes, why bother writing fanfiction if you have no appreciation for the building you're basing it on? Admittedly fannish love takes a myriad of forms, from the non-participatory nature of occasionally dipping toes into fanfiction through the whole gamut to being subscribed to every mailing list known, running some of them and even archiving as well as producing 'product', but I will never understand a fannish love that doesn't concern itself more with the tv show that the fandom is based upon than the operation of the fandom itself. I know it happens - I've seen it happen where people are more concerned with their places in the community than the thing that cements the community together, but can't understand it. I can understand communities adding to the experience of fannish love, and I can understand how, as that love for the show wanes (maybe you find pastures new or maybe the show is cancelled or whatever), the communities may become more important than the show. But I can't understand the community being more important than the show in the first instance.

For me, the friendships I've made and kept in fandoms have started off based in that mutual love and blossomed into something more. But it was the love of the show and that immersion in it that brought us together in the first place and if it hadn't been for that immersion in canon, and discussion of it and ficcing from it, then those friendships wouldn't have had room to grow either. But I'm getting off the point ::g::

Crossovers are something of an 'avoid' subject for me. I've read good ones - tasha27 has written some wonderful New Pros/other fandom crossovers that I've really enjoyed because she's captured Sam and Chris so well and yet given them that twist that makes it stand out. She likes the weird, does Tasha ::g::, and for me that works. But I haven't had such good experiences with other crossovers, maybe because I haven't had the same love for one set of the characters (although, when I finally got around to watching Charmed for example, I recognised the characters from Tasha's fic). However, saying that, most New Pros crossovers (the few there have been) haven't appealed to me at all, except for Tasha's for sheer plottiness and that weird twist I love and munchkinott's for sheer joie de vivre.

[alyse]

My name is Widget and I'm a canon slut. Bite me.

Only if you ask me nicely, dahling ::veg::

And yes, yes, YES! To my mind, canon isn't optional. If you want to make it optional (and God knows if people can make grammar and spelling and characterisation optional, why not?) fine, do it. But don't expect anyone with and discernment to read it.

(Did I spell that right? Brain died about 2 hours ago - I've entered into SleepDeprived and Caffeinated Al! mode. Be afraid. Be very afraid. Bouncy and hyper doesn't even come close ::veg::)

[alyse]

who was it who 'encouraged' me in this fanfic writing lark?

Hmmmm... can't think of who you could possibly mean ::blinks innocently::

Heh. Just call me Mistress of Pimpage and Corrupter of Innocents ::veg::

But I'm definitely suffering from the same problem you did when approaching Stargate fic

Yeah, it's scary, that's what it is, and I've come to the conclusion that it's scary because we actually care. It's scary in more than a 'I may screw up' way too - it's not necessarily solely the public humiliation factor. I know we've both invested a lot of time in our writing - seeking betas, reading essays about what constitutes good writing, seeking to improve with every new story, trying new things, not always successfully in my case :) And we've invested that time because we do actually care.

The problem is that because we're aware of all of the pitfalls we worry obsessively about falling into poor characterisation, weak plots, Mary Sues. I know I've subjected you to more than one worried query in that vein ::g:: It's the downside of actually giving a shit, and I wish I had an easy answer. There isn't one, of course, except somehow getting to the point where we don't give a fuck about these things.

At which point I will hang up my keyboard I think, and let myself be put out to pasture ::g::

Still, better to be a cannon whore than not :)

Hell, yes. If we fail, at least we fail nobly, knowing we tried, or some crap like that ::g::

Re Firefly - didn't realise people were writing fanfic already??!!

There were, apparently, archives set up (archives!) before the show even aired. The mind boggles ::g::

[elke-tanzer.livejournal.com]

Um... I have SG squintyvision copies of (I think) from the start of season 2 up to episode 100 (Wormhole Extreme), and possibly a bit beyond. I might have season 1, I'm not sure. If you email your shipping address to me at elke_tanzer @ hotmail.com I can burn you some CDs... they're not terribly hi-res, but they're enough to give you the storylines and a feel for the characters' dialogue and interactive style. *pimppimppimp*

As far as what "the fandom" thinks... well, for SG "the fandom" is really, really scary and definitely suffers from multiple personality disorder. And I take Emmett from US QaF's attitude... "F*** 'em all."

Recipe for a satisfied SG fanfic author: Write what you feel. Write what you know. If you don't know something that you want to write, learn it. Spell-check. Proofread and edit yourself, and/or ask betas to help. Post it on your website, link to it in your LJ, send the URL to some of your online buds. Be happy. Check out the websites and fanfic of people who send you feedback into account when reading it. Take feedback from people whose work you don't appreciate with a pinch of Lot's wife. Take feedback from people you respect in stride without letting it overinflate your ego or crush your spirit. Avoid SG mailing lists like the plague. Consider sending the story to a few archives that you've found stuff you like in. Bask in your own accomplishment.

*grin*

[elke-tanzer.livejournal.com]

If we fail, at least we fail nobly, knowing we tried, or some crap like that ::g::

AMEN!

E for effort is better than F for fubar...

This is one of the reasons I'm scared witless of writing in SW, and why I've ordered nearly the entirety of the Expanded Universe for myself for the holidays.

But as I was describing one of my plotbunnies in the SW fandom and Janis grabbed me by the shoulders and shrieked "Write this! YOU MUST WRITE THIS!!!" while shaking me hard enough to kill an infant, I kinda got over the paranoia enough to start writing... I haven't finished anything yet, because I'm waiting to learn the rest of the canon to be sure I'm not actively contradicting it, but I'm determined to forge ahead.

BTW, this does give me the "Janis, this is All Your Fault(TM)" out if the story sucks. *silly grin*

[alyse]

Oh, we didn't need to pimp SG1 to Lou - she was already a Jack fan ::g:: I think Lou (and she will correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure :)) is talking about having the same problems venturing into a new fandom as I had when I first dipped my toe into Stargate rather than dipping her toe into Stargate, although, God knows, we'd love it if she started to write it :) There's always room on JAM for you, sweetie, but then you know that, oh Dances with Mullets ::snerk::

I need sleep... definitely.

Re:

[widget285.livejournal.com]

My name is Widget and I'm a canon slut. Bite me.

Only if you ask me nicely, dahling ::veg::

Whoo hoo! Oh yeah, bay-be! Low and on the right ;-)

Was that nice enough for ya?

Hmmm...SleepDeprivedCaffeinated...what is the icon for that one, Al? Oh wait, let me guess. It's just like ecstatic, isn't it? ;-)

[munchkinott.livejournal.com]

Al, you really need to try this sleep deprivation lark more often. *eg*

[alyse]

Was that nice enough for ya?

::purrs:: Oh yeah...

Hmmm...SleepDeprivedCaffeinated...what is the icon for that one, Al?

It's this one:





It is actually there - it's just bouncing so fast you can't see it with the naked eye ::g:: Just ask dockate and munchkinott about the joys of dealing with a sleep deprived and caffeinated Al. I provide hours of amusement and you don't even need to buy batteries...

Is there a way of phrasing that without it sounding 'feeeeeelthy'? Maybe I should stop now while I'm ahead... or something.

JAG fic

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, go ahead. Write DarkHarm or CrazyHarm. We mostly haven't seen him for a while. People forget that he's just as damaged and odd as Mac, mostly because he covers up with a big smile.

Maureen O'Brien, who once wrote a chunk o' JAGfic

Re:

[alyse]

:P

Re:

[widget285.livejournal.com]

::snerk::

Feeeeelthy, you? Surely such a thing is not possible. You're as pure as the driven snow, Al. And no, my mind didn't conjure up *any* dirty pictures at your descriptiob. Nope, not me. Never. ;-)

[umbo.livejournal.com]

hey, here i am blogjacking--hope y'all don't mind.

basically, i really liked what you had to say here, particularly in a couple spots:

Why deconstruct something before you understand what it is on its own merits?

*yes*. i sometimes cringe when i reread the stuff i wrote earliest, because even though i was totally infatuated with the characters and watching the show and the movie obsessively (i write, yes, crossovers pairing the disparate pair of Billy Tallent from Hard Core Logo and Tim Bayliss from Homicide: Life on the Street), my understanding of canon has deepened so much in the last year and a half that i'm frustrated with a couple of the choices i made early on.

Every now and then I stumble across a crossover I find myself liking where only the characters from one fandom are in character, and the guest stars are out of character. Those stories are kind of like cotton candy. Sometimes it's nice, but if you eat too much, your tongue turns funky colors and then you feel sick. Eeew. And such food is never nourishing!

this is so true, and i've seen it so many times. it's something i'm so aware of in others' stories, and try really hard to avoid myself, hopefully at least semi-successfully.

anyway, loved what you said.

[umbo.livejournal.com]

This is a really great essay, Alyse.

I consider myself to be a canon whore as well, even though I write crossovers. I couldn't find anyone within the characters of Homicide that felt right to pair Tim Bayliss with, because the standard pairings didn't work for me from a canon-based perspective. There was no way, for example, that the Frank Pembleton I saw through six seasons and the movie was going to get it on with Tim Bayliss--he's far too devoted to his wife and far too Catholic and just far too straight, you know?

I like to read slash in fandoms I don't write, but my enjoyment of it sometimes varies based on my perception of how much the writer/fandom has to stretch to really pair the people. Due South is not a problem for me, if it's Kowalski/Fraser, because the subtext was deliberately put there by PG and CKR (well, and the fact that it's CKR; I admit to sometimes succumbing to the "let's put X with Y because they look hot together" thing where he's concerned). The Sentinel has tons of subtext, and it's easy enough to see Duncan/Methos, or Clark/Lex. I'm not familiar enough with Stargate to comment on that. But Harry/Tom in Voyager? Just don't see it, won't read it. Same with Vecchio/Fraser, or Vecchio/Kowalski. My gut reaction to that is, well, eewww, and not because I don't find David Marciano attractive.

When I did finally move from reading fic to actually writing it, I picked, yes, too characters who are *on the surface* extremely different--I remember Kellie Matthews being very puzzled when I emailed her about my original idea--but I also picked two characters who have a) a very strong canon-based bisexuality (Tim Bayliss is openly bisexual, and the Billy/Joe relationship is pretty damned close to text, or *is* text, depending on how you see it) and b) past histories that (for me at least) totally dovetail in really cool ways--I saw so much parallel in the relationships between Frank/Tim and Joe/Billy, and the whole going through hell and coming through on the other side... Now, granted, part of the appeal is that I set my fic years after the movie HCL ends, so I can have Bill doing a lot of growth, which means he *is* a different character from the one in the movie--but I work very hard to show how he got from A to B, you know?

But my point was, I think, that I didn't feel comfortable writing a pairing that I didn't see enough canonical evidence for avoiding the whole "suddenly gay" thing, you know?

I could also relate to what you said about writing in fandoms where the source material's not easily accessed. I started, oh, over a year ago, a crossover between Arli$$, due South, and Made in Canada (called The Industry in the US) after watching the first season of MiC on PBS. The show's actually in its fourth season, I think, on CBC, but Bravo apparently got the rights from PBS and then aired like two episodes and stopped (and they won't air Twitch City again, dammit! but that's another rant). I sent what I'd written off to beta to someone who'd seen the current eps, and she wrote back something about one of the characters no longer being on the show, and it sent me into a tailspin, and I've yet to finish the story (well, there are other reasons as well, but that's definitely part of it). Because I can't write about what I haven't seen, and writing about stuff based only on the first season feels like cheating.

Even if I write something in Homicide based on something from the fifth or sixth season, my view of the character is still totally shaped by where I know he's going--and don't get me started on folks who write Homicide and just decide to ignore the seventh season. Even before I saw a single episode of The Sentinel, I got annoyed by fic that ignored the end of the show and made Blair stay an anthropology student. I may have struggled mightily to get to the point that I can see a whole characterization of Tim Bayliss that includes the seventh season and the movie, but I'll be damned if I'll ignore it, you know?

Ah, this has turned long. I think I'm going to post it in my LJ as well, or something like it, but I wanted to get this down now.

[tasha27.livejournal.com]

Okay, Tasha's playing catch up :-).

I have to wholeheartedly agree with you Al, canon is the place to start. Canon is the reason I am trawling through LoTR before I dare launch into the fanfic. I've seen the film twice now and been analysing scenes with the pause button, but I can't begin to think through any plots properly before I know what's supposed to happen :-). I know what happened in the film ... I even know what happened in the book(s) as far as the end of the movie, but I need to know what's going to happen next as well :-).

I'm with you all the way on the accidental AUs *shudder*. As you have already pointed out further down I like the weird :-), but when the weird occurs and does not add up then there is a problem. I could leap into the crossover debate here, but maybe I'll muse on that later :-).

As usual what can I say except, on the whole, I totally agree :-). Well said.

[luigifish.livejournal.com]

*vbg* Unfortunately, as Al quite correctly pointed out, I'm thinking of venturing into JAG fic, not Stargate but you get 10 out of 10 for your pimping style - and the offer of the CD is much appreciated.

I think I shall try your recipe though and apply it to JAG. The 'avoid mailing lists' advice still applies I think :) There are some decent archives so I could try them. And the 'write what you feel', 'write what you know' is always sound advice :)

[alyse]

I could leap into the crossover debate here, but maybe I'll muse on that later

Muse... please ::g:: Crossovers are one of those weird beasties that I know that some people (i.e. you ::g::) love to write, but I can't get my head around it. I mean - I can see the attraction if you love both shows and think that you'd just love to see the interaction of X and Y (personally, I'd love to see Sam's reaction on going to the Hellmouth. I can see he and Giles having these conversations about it that only take place in my head but crack me up anyway... I'm odd. You knew that :)) But so many of them simply are bad. There's no feel for both sets of characters and a lot of them seem to fall into the whole 'wouldn't it be cool' trap. I should say that I haven't got anything against writing something because it's cool (hello? Fanfic. Supposed to be fun!) but I do wonder how much fun it can be if you don't bother explaining the background properly... like how Daniel and Jack ended up on the same planet as Ares (Ares as a Goa'uld... okay, I can almost buy that. If you put any effort into, like, selling it to me [/Sarcastic Valley Girl Impression]). But so often the mechanics of making the two universes work and mesh together simply aren't invested in because of the whole 'coolness' thing.

Ah, ignore me. I'm just in that bitter fic bitch place... again. I'm thinking of buying a condo here. What do you think?

You do realise that one of these days I'm going to end up writing a crossover and you can throw all of this bitter vitriol back into my face ::g::

[alyse]

I consider myself to be a canon whore as well, even though I write crossovers.

Ah, you see, this is one of the reasons that I'm not overly fond of crossovers. Too many bad ones where canon falls by the wayside because people are more interested in crossing over the universes than making those two universes mesh and connect, and making it logical and real to me.

I work very hard to show how he got from A to B, you know?

Yes, I know exactly what you mean :) And this, to me, shows that you've considered canon, and tried to make it work and I bet that, even if I didn't entirely buy your premise (remembering that I know nothing about either fandom so this is entirely hypothetical), I bet that would show through.

But my point was, I think, that I didn't feel comfortable writing a pairing that I didn't see enough canonical evidence for avoiding the whole "suddenly gay" thing, you know?

Oh yes! I want to understand how they got from A to B - that's why I love first time stories. And I don't want 'they fall into each other's arms and kiss and that's everything hunky dory' stories. I want 'this is a logical progression from what's seen on screen to being involved' stories. Give me canon, baby. Give it to me good! ::g:: Or, hell, you might as well be writing original fic about original characters.

my view of the character is still totally shaped by where I know he's going

I'm fascinated by the idea of foreshadowing affecting how you perceive the characters, and how that in turn affects your portrayal of them. I've written in four fandoms - one of them very briefly. Two of 'my shows' only lasted one season - no foreshadowing. However, of the other two fandoms, one was Star Wars: The Phantom Menace, where foreshadowing is a very important part of the film. I wrote two OW/QG pieces, and both of them dealt with events pre Qui Gon's death in the film, and that was primarily because I prefer to deal with canon, and both of those pieces were vignettes.

Stargate is the first fandom I've written in where there is a hell of a lot of canon to deal with, and where I find foreshadowing to be an issue. I find that I set pieces in Season 3, post FIAD, and my take on Daniel is therefore influenced by the way that his character changes over the course of the series - becomes harder, more openly sarcastic, more like Jack in fact, something that he himself mentions in Watergate. The thing is, I don't think I could write a story set in Season 1/2 if I tried. I simply don't 'see' Daniel that way - the way I see him is influenced by later Daniel and I think it always will be. If I try to write the 'younger' Daniel, I find myself thinking that it comes across as false; too innocent, too cutesy, too naive.

I'm getting off track, I know, but you've brought up another interesting line of thought for me :) Thanks :) And thanks for your comments too - very interesting :)

[alyse]

Re:

[widget285.livejournal.com]

Pfft! I don't believe it from you Al, and I sure as Hell don't buy it coming from *those* two, especially when I can't see their hands. Call me paranoid, but I know they are up to something, and I suspect it involves lube.

Re:

[alyse]

HOWL! I'm not going to even ask what they'd be doing while dressed, because I'm sure you'll tell me. With diagrams if necessary ::veg::

Re:

[widget285.livejournal.com]

And flow charts. Don't forget the flow charts. Oooh! And powerpoint! Must have the powerpoint!

Don't worry, I'll leave it to your fertile and incredibly feeeelthy imagination. ;-)