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musesfool has made me think about the oft-quoted 'misogyny being rife within slash'. Now, I should make it clear that musesfool didn't say that, it's just that what she did say sent my mind tripping down various little sidestreets and a story I've been (trying to) reading this morning has set these vague thoughts in a more concrete form.
There is no doubt misogyny within slash, just like there's misogyny in het or gen.thewildmole's rants about stories that actually state 'women are more physically suited to surviving rape', for example (and isn't it a sad state that there's more than one author within a fandom throwing that around?) highlights the fact that there are some women who don't appear to like and/or respect other women very much. No doubt there are some men who are the same.
However, what many, many people see as 'misogyny' I see as being symptomatic of something very different. 'How dare you threaten my OTP... bitch!' In other words, the portrayal of Sam in many Stargate Slash stories is because she threatens Jack/Daniel, not because she's a woman. The non-portrayal of Sam in many slash stories may be the same, but it may also be that a) some people find writing Sam difficult (me! me!), b) how exactly do you incorporate Sam within a slash PWP in any meaningful fashion (and riffing off that, why are there so many more Jack/Daniel/Teal'c threesome fics than there are Jack/Daniel/Sam?) and c) if you find the relationship between Jack and Daniel to be the thing that makes you want to write fanfiction (and I'm sure that I'm not the only one who writes fanfiction for different reasons to watching the show - I write fanfiction to explore what I don't get onscreen, not to continue what I do) then you're focusing on one very small aspect anyway, so the lack of the other characters isn't necessarily any indication that you don't like Sam, or that as a person within the confines of the show on screen you don't yell 'Go, Sam!' when she does something particularly cool.
::deep breath::
But the portrayal of female characters within slash fic as some indication of some deep loathing of women as a whole? In short, that one of the reaons that slashers generally write slash is because women are icky and het sex is icky? That I don't get. (Yes, I have made jokes about OMG, I wrote het! but, you know, it's a joke and is related to what I mentioned above. I get the het flirting onscreen, thank you kindly. Therefore no burning need to explore it unless it's something like Sam/McKay which was tragically, tragically cut short, IMHO)
There may be women who write slash because somehow they see men as being superior to women - sexually as well as within societal constraints - and therefore feel the need to put down women within their stories. But, to use Stargate as an example again, if they hate women generally so much, why is it only Sam who is demonised within some slash. How come Janet is never portrayed as an evil, skanky bitch?(1) Because if you're a misogynist, isn't a successful medical doctor just as much of a target as a successful major?
The story I'm reading is Harry/Hermione and has Cho in it. Apparently it's one of the H/Hr stories out there, with its own yahoogroup for fans. I wouldn't know - I know very little about the HP fandom and looked it up following a post in fandom wank. It's... I'd say 'bad' but it doesn't meet the criteria for truly badfic. It's just mediocre - flat, uninteresting with huge chunks of exposition explaining who the characters are (you know the thing. 'Hermione Granger sighed as she walked through the door. She'd returned from her job after (cue Hermione's life history up to that point)) just shoved in there. It's also chockful of Cho dislike. She's a scheming, self-obsessed individual who only wants to take Harry from Hermione, and apparently has committed the cardinal sin of OMG dating Harry and wanting him back. Solely because she wants to improve her standing, not because she'd actually care about him.
Sound familiar? In fact, sounds exactly like women who threaten the OTP within slashfic, doesn't it? However, I don't think anyone would point at this story and say 'OMG, just look at this story. How misogynistic!' I suspect that it only stands out more within slash stories because of the lack of female characters generally, plus I think there's a handy kind of shorthand in making the female character express some distaste for hot boy on boy action to show her unworthiness and lack of understanding of the boys. But I don't think that's any different than having Cho, for example, express her surprise that Harry would choose Hermione because she's, you know, Hermione, a boring brainiac with bushy hair. It's all about making the threat look unworthy and the OTP triumphing against all odds. 'Why would you want a man? God, that's disgusting.' equals 'Why would you want Hermione? God, she's plain.' And frankly I don't have time for either.
Yes, I know this isn't a huge leap but I had fun with it anyway. It's been a long time since I had the inclination or energy to go even vaguely meta.
There is one thing I am thankful for, and that's that JP III appears to be devoid of Ellie bashing. I think Ellie is incredibly cool and would have to aim a very hard Paddington Bear stare at anyone who dissed her. I suspect, however, that part of the reason she's been spared (apart from the fact that it's such a small fandom that not every behaviour exhibited in larger fandoms is present) is that at the start of JP III she's obviously happily married, with children and a life she's content with, and is therefore no longer a threat to Alan and Billy. Unfortunately it's also the reason I can't write threesome fic with a clear conscience. Which is a pity, because I suspect that Ellie and Billy would get along like a house on fire because they're both insightful, even if Billy seems to lack Ellie's sarcasm, and they both think the world of Alan. I can so see them running rings around Alan.
Ah well. There's always Pirates of the Caribbean, with a threesome that's practically canon.
(1 - I make an exception for portraying Anise in fanfiction like this, because she's an evil, skanky bitch in canon. ::g::)
musesfool has made me think about the oft-quoted 'misogyny being rife within slash'. Now, I should make it clear that musesfool didn't say that, it's just that what she did say sent my mind tripping down various little sidestreets and a story I've been (trying to) reading this morning has set these vague thoughts in a more concrete form.There is no doubt misogyny within slash, just like there's misogyny in het or gen.
thewildmole's rants about stories that actually state 'women are more physically suited to surviving rape', for example (and isn't it a sad state that there's more than one author within a fandom throwing that around?) highlights the fact that there are some women who don't appear to like and/or respect other women very much. No doubt there are some men who are the same.However, what many, many people see as 'misogyny' I see as being symptomatic of something very different. 'How dare you threaten my OTP... bitch!' In other words, the portrayal of Sam in many Stargate Slash stories is because she threatens Jack/Daniel, not because she's a woman. The non-portrayal of Sam in many slash stories may be the same, but it may also be that a) some people find writing Sam difficult (me! me!), b) how exactly do you incorporate Sam within a slash PWP in any meaningful fashion (and riffing off that, why are there so many more Jack/Daniel/Teal'c threesome fics than there are Jack/Daniel/Sam?) and c) if you find the relationship between Jack and Daniel to be the thing that makes you want to write fanfiction (and I'm sure that I'm not the only one who writes fanfiction for different reasons to watching the show - I write fanfiction to explore what I don't get onscreen, not to continue what I do) then you're focusing on one very small aspect anyway, so the lack of the other characters isn't necessarily any indication that you don't like Sam, or that as a person within the confines of the show on screen you don't yell 'Go, Sam!' when she does something particularly cool.
::deep breath::
But the portrayal of female characters within slash fic as some indication of some deep loathing of women as a whole? In short, that one of the reaons that slashers generally write slash is because women are icky and het sex is icky? That I don't get. (Yes, I have made jokes about OMG, I wrote het! but, you know, it's a joke and is related to what I mentioned above. I get the het flirting onscreen, thank you kindly. Therefore no burning need to explore it unless it's something like Sam/McKay which was tragically, tragically cut short, IMHO)
There may be women who write slash because somehow they see men as being superior to women - sexually as well as within societal constraints - and therefore feel the need to put down women within their stories. But, to use Stargate as an example again, if they hate women generally so much, why is it only Sam who is demonised within some slash. How come Janet is never portrayed as an evil, skanky bitch?(1) Because if you're a misogynist, isn't a successful medical doctor just as much of a target as a successful major?
The story I'm reading is Harry/Hermione and has Cho in it. Apparently it's one of the H/Hr stories out there, with its own yahoogroup for fans. I wouldn't know - I know very little about the HP fandom and looked it up following a post in fandom wank. It's... I'd say 'bad' but it doesn't meet the criteria for truly badfic. It's just mediocre - flat, uninteresting with huge chunks of exposition explaining who the characters are (you know the thing. 'Hermione Granger sighed as she walked through the door. She'd returned from her job after (cue Hermione's life history up to that point)) just shoved in there. It's also chockful of Cho dislike. She's a scheming, self-obsessed individual who only wants to take Harry from Hermione, and apparently has committed the cardinal sin of OMG dating Harry and wanting him back. Solely because she wants to improve her standing, not because she'd actually care about him.
Sound familiar? In fact, sounds exactly like women who threaten the OTP within slashfic, doesn't it? However, I don't think anyone would point at this story and say 'OMG, just look at this story. How misogynistic!' I suspect that it only stands out more within slash stories because of the lack of female characters generally, plus I think there's a handy kind of shorthand in making the female character express some distaste for hot boy on boy action to show her unworthiness and lack of understanding of the boys. But I don't think that's any different than having Cho, for example, express her surprise that Harry would choose Hermione because she's, you know, Hermione, a boring brainiac with bushy hair. It's all about making the threat look unworthy and the OTP triumphing against all odds. 'Why would you want a man? God, that's disgusting.' equals 'Why would you want Hermione? God, she's plain.' And frankly I don't have time for either.
Yes, I know this isn't a huge leap but I had fun with it anyway. It's been a long time since I had the inclination or energy to go even vaguely meta.
There is one thing I am thankful for, and that's that JP III appears to be devoid of Ellie bashing. I think Ellie is incredibly cool and would have to aim a very hard Paddington Bear stare at anyone who dissed her. I suspect, however, that part of the reason she's been spared (apart from the fact that it's such a small fandom that not every behaviour exhibited in larger fandoms is present) is that at the start of JP III she's obviously happily married, with children and a life she's content with, and is therefore no longer a threat to Alan and Billy. Unfortunately it's also the reason I can't write threesome fic with a clear conscience. Which is a pity, because I suspect that Ellie and Billy would get along like a house on fire because they're both insightful, even if Billy seems to lack Ellie's sarcasm, and they both think the world of Alan. I can so see them running rings around Alan.
Ah well. There's always Pirates of the Caribbean, with a threesome that's practically canon.
(1 - I make an exception for portraying Anise in fanfiction like this, because she's an evil, skanky bitch in canon. ::g::)
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