Zen and the Art of avoiding any more housework...

[alyse]

It's that time of year again. The time of year when Al, after frantically cleaning every surface of the house until it sparkles and building more bookcases than any reasonable person could need, finds her thoughts turning to that burning question.

Bestiality in fanfiction.

Run now.

Actually, I've been musing for a while about it, prompted by one of my favourite episodes - The First Ones. I love that episode. The only thing that could have made it better would be some actual Jack/Daniel interaction (and them not killing Rothman. I liked Rothman. He was fun, even if he wasn't a 'people person'.) I mean, face it. You get Daniel hurt, feisty (in the true sense of the word), passionate about the things he believes in and doing what he does best - finding common ground and making a connection to a truly alien culture. What's not to like? The fact that he's bandanaed and being dragged around by a rope doesn't hurt either, of course.

But that brings me to Daniel/Chaka. There's an empathy there that I find fascinating, and not just on Daniel's side. Chaka is as fascinated, in the end, by Daniel as Daniel is by him. They recognise, in each other, a sentient being - one capable of self-awareness and, again, empathy with others. Both of them, I think, start off with seeing each other as something not quite 'human', and I have to use that word simply because our language, understandably, is so anthrocentric. I suspect that Daniel first of all views Chaka in a similar vein to Jack - big, stinky monster - and Chaka certainly views Daniel as potential food or at the very minimum a kill to impress the elders. But that changes as the story unfolds and you get those wonderful scenes of Daniel figuring out that Chaka not only has an awareness but a language and a culture to go with, and Chaka starts to view Daniel as something other than lunch.

So why is it that the only Daniel/Chaka story I've come across falls firmly into the 'bestiality' camp?

I've ranted about this before in, I think, a response to a post by moonlight_spike. Let it not be said I never repeat myself :)

I should go on record, I suppose, as saying I'm not overly fond of Brenda Antrim's Stargate stories anyway. I think she writes good, solid Professionals stories but her Stargate stories seem a little 'off' to me. The characterisations and situations never quite ring true - at least to me. YMMV. In fact, she was one of the writers I immediately thought of when destina mused about whether or not fanfiction writers could write in a multitude of fandoms and successfully capture all of them, or whether they could successfully capture two or three and then ran the risk of ATG (Any Two Guys) fics.

However, I could see 'Daniel/Chaka' in the episode, could see that tentative connection and could see how that curiosity about each other could lead to more. So when I saw she'd written the pairing I was intrigued but very, very disappointed by the story. I mused a lot about why I was so disappointed and came to a conclusion.

It was bestiality.

That was what I took away from the story, whether the writer intended that or not. If she intended to convey the fascination between them that I took away from the show, well she failed to convey it to me. In fact, at the risk of sounding like a bitter old fic bitch, I thought she was far more caught up in her idea that Chaka had two penises (although I know it's dangerous to attribute intentions to authors).

Actually, Daniel was far more interested in that too. And that's why the story completely failed to work for me. There was no recognition on Daniel's part of the fact that Chaka was a sentient being in his own right, even though Chaka narrated at least part of the text so presumably the author recognised something akin to intelligence in him. But on Daniel's part there was a combination of condescention towards Chaka as being an animal, albeit a smart one, and rueful indifference to the fact that he was about to be screwed by this animal in front of the rest of the pack. Sort of 'oh well, I'll close my eyes and it won't matter.... ooooh, he has two penises'.

It irritated me because I hadn't seen that attitude in Daniel in the show. The other members of SG1, yes, but not Daniel. I wanted to read a story that explored the fascination they felt for one another, even, perhaps, on Daniel's part a wondering about what they were doing on an 'interspecies sex' basis, but not a dismissal of Chaka as a baser being.

I have no doubt that Chaka is sentient. none at all. In fact, I don't even think that Chaka is less 'intelligent' than humans, although I despise that definition. I think his 'intelligence' may be of a different sort but I think the fairest thing that you could say is that his culture is less advanced. Why do I think that? Let's review the evidence.

i) Chaka's self-awareness. Self-awareness - the knowledge that you are a unique individual and recognition of the world around you and your place in it - is one of the defining attributes of sentience. There is no doubt that Chaka is self-aware. He has an awareness of his own mortality, which is why he's so wary, but more than that - he has an awareness of the Goa'uld and what they do. So he doesn't just know that he's alive and unique but that he knows that that uniqueness can be overwhelmed by a parasite which will take his will away. That necklace ain't just for decoration, folks. He knows what the Goa'uld do and he's afraid of it. If that doesn't convey the fact that he's self-aware I don't know what will.

If you wanted further evidence of this awareness, what about the events in Beast of Burden? Chaka and his kind recognise that they are enslaved and are willing to fight for their freedom so they must have a concept of what 'freedom' is. Theirs isn't the mindless flight of a wild horse for greener pastures. They know that what is being done to them is wrong, and mourn the passing of a fellow slave. Chaka even understands the concept of revenge, if what he does to Burrell is any indication.

ii) the use of tools - this isn't necessarily an indication of sentience, because some animals do use tools, both primates and birds, but when you consider the type of tools that Chaka uses, which includes ropes that either he or his tribe have made, then that shows that Unases are capable of planning and manipulating complicated materials to produce an end result.

iii) appreciation of the world around you. Two words. Cave paintings. Is it worth pointing out that cave paintings in our world are attributed to Homo sapiens, our very species? In fact, it strikes me that the level of social and cultural development for the Unas in The First Ones is very similar to that of early man, and when you consider the harsh conditions in which they live, constantly wary of being preyed upon by the Goa'uld, it's hardly surprising it hasn't advanced further. Culture and technology will remain static if your first priority is safe drinking water and the ability to get to it un-Goa'ulded.

iv) an empathy with others. Empathy requires you to be able to identify with someone else, to put yourself in their shoes. Cats and dogs may well pick up on your moods but to understand why you are afraid? Hurting? Chaka develops that kind of empathy with Daniel to the point of interceding with the alpha male, at risk of his own life.

So, I don't view Chaka as an animal but as a sentient being in his own right, even if his people haven't reached any significant level of technology and their culture is static as survival takes precedence. At least, I'm assuming it's a static culture because the Unas have been around as long as the Goa'uld - we know that's how the Goa'uld first left the planet they evolved on, by parasitising the Unas, thousands of years ago. Of course, their culture could have developed after that - survival of the fittest somehow dictating that only those Unas with a rudimentary intelligence avoiding being parasitised, but didn't the Unas in 'Demons' have the capability of speech, and even if the Goa'uld was talking that means that the mechanism must have been there? And I somehow get the impression that the Goa'uld who are out there in the Galaxy don't exactly reply to invitations to come to their High School reunion, i.e don't seem to have returned to the world depicted in The First Ones. None of the Goa'uld there had naquada.

So... Chaka does not equal animal, therefore, to my mind, Daniel/Chaka does not enter into the realms of bestiality. I want my Chaka to be like I see on screen, intelligent and self-aware, acknowledging that Daniel is sentient too and I want my Daniel to view Chaka in that light, not as a lower animal.

So why isn't anyone writing it? Is it the squick factor, the big, stinky monster thing? Is it the fact that OTP is so prevalent in the fandom... hell, there's very little Daniel/Paul and Paul interacts with Daniel in several episodes, and obviously has a serious crush. And is human, of course. But there's more Jack/Thor out there than Daniel/Chaka, and if Daniel/Chaka is bestiality, given the relative differences in culture and social development, why isn't Jack/Thor, with Jack as the beast of course. Yet none of the very little Jack/Thor I've seen even has an indication that Thor may think of the pairing in those terms.

Are people just being put off because it is, effectively, interspecies sex, no different in that respect that John Crichton/Ka D'Argo? Is there a sneaking suspicion that if you write it it will end up as reviled fic? Normally if I whinge about 'why isn't there more type of this fic?' I go away and write it but, as intriguing as it sounds, I have no bunnies and don't want to end up writing Daniel/Chaka PWPs. Besides, the last time I asked myself something like that it was 'Why isn't there more New Pros slash?' and look what happened there ::g::

When is bestiality not bestiality? When someone can write it that way.

Comments

[lerefuge.livejournal.com]

*claps hands*

Thank you! Your rant is very much to the point. I am also a big fan of "The First Ones" ep, for all the lovely reasons you pointed ;) But even moreso, it captivated me because of Daniel's attitude. As humans, we don't have experience on Earth of other species similar to ours. Therefore there's no "code" about how to act with another specie, totally different from us, that may have similar attributes. What was so fascinating was that Daniel almost right away considered Chaka as a sentient being, similar to himself and try to communicate with him like he would with another human that didn't speak his language. That's an attitude that is not common in our societies's medias, and not much more on Stargate:SG-1 itself. We know oh so well how Jack refuses to even "consider" Chaka or other being like Reese to be similar to him and deserve the same deference he would give to the Asgard or any other Human society. You'd think that after 5 years meeting new species on another planet, Jack would have open his mind a little bit more... Anyways :)

Re: Daniel/Chaka fics. I read the fic you mentionned, and it's true it's not a chef d'oeuvre of the genre. Apart from the bestiality, there was the obvious off characterization stuff and was too much like a PWP. It still brought me interest because, to my knowledge, it is the only fic dealing again with Daniel and Chaka's relation (Haven't seen any other slash or gen or whatever). Of course, it's a huge lost! I would love to read another fic dealing with it (slash, gen, whatever). I would only trust a good author to write slash stuff in that pairing though... *wink wink nudge nudge* Sorry, couldn't resist ;)

Re Jack/Tor...
You have an excellent point about this pairing being similar to bestiality. What definitely disturbsme with Stargate and what stops me from thinking it's a high quality show, is the fact that they equal : high technology develpment with "better and superior" societies. Which frankly is silly. You can't "rate" societies among humans, and I doubt you can do it betweens species either. Especially on a single standard such as technologies (and even more than technologies, but means of destruction). So what exactly makes bestiality? Simple interspecies? Than Jack/Tor, Tyr/Dylan or whatever is. Or is it in the difference of "level" of development? Like I just mentionned, it's quite a loose argument, since you can't "rate" societies or species that easily. Even more since it always stays completely subjective. So I am gonna go with you (all that babble to approve, quite pitiful ;)) with the fact that it's in the "way" it's written.

Don't shoot the bunny? Look how cute he is... *protects the bunny* ;)

[alyse]

You make a very valid point about the way that SG1 presents more technologically advanced races as somehow 'superior' instead of having better toys. Let's look at the evidence for that too, shall we?

The Asgard - better toys but a bad habit of playing God. So they play more benevolent gods than the Goa'uld do. They still, however, have kidnapped people from Earth, planted them on other planets and limited their technological advancement, even if they claim it's required by the terms of their treaty with the Goa'uld. The Nox may refer to us as 'children' but I suspect that the Asgard word for 'human' is somewhat equivalent to 'pet'.

The Nox - so far they are the only race not to screw the Tau'ri over in one way or another. But then they don't screw anyone over. Kind of an advantage they have that whole 'coming back from the dead' thing going on. Rather a pity that other people don't though, isn't it.

The Tollan - arrogant assholes who rubbed the fact that the Tau'ri are inferior into the faces of SG1 at every opportunity then tried to shaft us when they realised that their much vaulted technological advances were no longer good enough to protect them from the Goa'uld. Then it was 'bye bye, Earth. Here, have a bomb.' Not quite so morally superior then, were they?

The Tok'ra - Anise. Armband Guinea Pigs. Enough said. I'm with Jack on the distrust. As far as I can tell, Jacob is the only trustworthy one of the lot of them.

So, I think it's clear within the SG1 Universe that technologically advanced does not = better. And yet, we see the Tau'ri making the same mistakes that these races make with respect to those who aren't as technologically advanced as we are. Part of me wonders whether this is deliberate, and then I wonder if TPTB are really that subtle ::g:: I have my doubts.

Jack's reactions are very, very interesting, and not just in regards to Reese and Chaka. He didn't react very well to his android double either, refusing to see Jackbot as anything other than a machine until the very end, despite the fact that this being had his face, his reactions and his memories. It wasn't until he saw how Jackbot reacted to the death of his kids that it brought home to Jack both what he risked losing (his team rather than the doubles) and the basic humanity, for want of a better word, of his counterpart.

Still, at least Jack and Daniel are internally consistent, even if they are on different sides of the fence. Sam has no such luck, and it's sloppy writing. She can view Urgo as a sentient being but not Reese, when they are effectively both machines? And she's interacted with machine lifeforms before, both her double and in Entity. She shows compassion with Cassie and yet not to Reese? ::shakes head sadly::

But yes, I agree with you. It's a sad fact that many of the characters within Stargate seem to want to believe that better toys make for a better, more enlightened species when that's often far from the case. Still, that gives us room to play ::veg::

Re:

[lerefuge.livejournal.com]

The Asgard - : Totally agree with you on this. In a way, they are even more perverted than the Go'aulds. The snakes pretends to be superior because they are Gods. Their higher statue (that they defend is more biological than anything) give them the right to exploit humans. The Asgard on the other hand, makes no such pretense. The Asgard don't even have that (twisted I agree) honesty to say 'we are Gods, we are superiors', they just act like it's natural that them, such superior beings, have the right on human lives. It's much more sneaky, but in no way better. They always treated the humans as kids that can't think by themselves, and need someone superior to take charge (not related, but it's very similar to how women were perceived not long ago. And we condemn this attitude...)

The Nox - How superior is it to watch everybody die around you while knowing you have the means to save them? Oh that's very high morales alright.

The Tollan : The Tollan keeps professing their utter superiority to the Tau'ri, but the only they showed to have superior, is their ego. Never through all the eps they demonstrated any better morales, or values, or ways of living that could hint they are (or their society) better than the Tau'ri.

The Tok'ra : Same with them. I still can't believe the SGC makes business with them at all anymore. They are duplicit bastards that talk to the Tau'ri only when *their* interests can be fully served. But then again, SGC seems to tolerate it for the sake of their so called superiority...

Which brings me to your other excellent observation. That way of putting rank on cultures is very American. It's a way embedded deeply into the very bowels of the American culture. The SGC (and of course, the show by extension) is made by American people. In America, cultures are ranked by technologies. So, Occident is "superior" to let's say, India, because they have better and more "advanced" technologies. They also bring the point that "inferior" cultures have a lowest quality of living, therefore confirming their judgement that their culture is better (of course they never mention that the difficulties of some countries is directly linked to the imperialism of the so called superior countries, and has nothing to do with their culture). Can you see the lovely parallell with the SGC and his contact with aliens? It's quite fascinating. (Of course, we could find *tons* of others exemple of this through the show. The first, and not the least, the fact that everybody around the galaxy speaks English, like it's the "natural" way of evolution to end up speaking English... and if a society doesn't, it's a very very "inferior" society, like the naked guys on the planet from "One False Step". (Of course there is the practical reason that we have to consider in the English speaking universe though ;)))

So if the SGC is tolerating to be called and treated as inferior by the species we mentionned, it's probably because for them, it's legitimized. The one with the biggest technologies (by extension weapons) has the right to rule others... The SGC acts with cultures tehy encounter on planets they consider "inferior" in the same way the Asgard (or else) act with them.

And I don't think the TPTB are that clever *g*

Your observations about Jack are also very interesting. It's amazing how Jack easily passes judgement on other species he sees as inferior. He is very quick on judging that their life is not as worth as his and his team... I do find it very inapropriate for a first contact team. Jack lost a lot of interest for me in the ep... about the Nazis? (or as it is called, the famous 'Shut up Daniel' ep ;)) Sorry, I forget the title. He decided purposefully at the end to let the man die by the iris. He knew the guy would follow and he ordered the iris to be closed. He decided that that man deserved to die for his culture difference... I mean, this is big, very big. It's also very distasteful.

But, gives us plenty of JD angst ;)

Oh btw, I may be saying false stuff about the show, since I didn't see a lot of eps ;)Please feel free to correct me. And I apologize for my sketchy English, it's not my first language... ;)

[alyse]

I'm not sure that it's just Americans that view societies in terms of how technologically advanced they are and somehow translates 'advanced' into 'worthy'. I think it's a habit of the developed world. Maybe it's a human things - that those like us are superior to those who are not. And those we want to be like are most superior of all. Not sure :) I'm not an anthropologist or psychologist. I know that attitude is no better in the UK.

In terms of Jack, I think there is a certain amount of 'we're better than everyone', even in regard to fellow Tau'ri. He's certainly not fond of the Russians, if his attitude in Watergate, The Tomb and what I've heard about season 6 is anything to go by. It's not clear, I don't think, whether this attitude is limited to the Russians or whether it's US vs Everyone else. If he grew up during the Cold War, with constant duck and cover drills, and then served in a similar climate, that may go someway towards explaining his attitude. Doesn't make it right, of course, but I get the feeling that Jack is someone who doesn't let go of wrongs, imagined or otherwise. Just look at how long he was pissed at Frank Churchill for leaving him behind in Iraq (Iran?), as seen in Matter of Time.

However, that aside, most of Jack's attitude seems to be less 'U.S. against them' as 'us against them'. In other words, his view often seems to be limited to his team, and maybe those other SGC teams that serve with them, versus everyone else. I had an interesting discussion with someone else about this recently - about the difference between Jack and Daniel's attitudes.

Jack, we both agreed, had a very limited world view - his team's safety was the most important thing, with everyone else a poor second. This meant, of course, that he was often willing to ignore the wrong's being committed in the wider world, unless forced to face them by Daniel.

Daniel, we thought, was the opposite. He saw things in a much wider way, but often at the risk of failing to narrow the focus. Daniel wants to save the whole world (universe?). Jack wants to save the team. Daniel may do things that put the team in danger, and needs Jack to force him to face up to practicalities. Jack places his team at top of the priority chain and needs Daniel to force him to see the bigger picture. They balance each other, and that, I think, is also at the root of many of their conflicts.

More in a bit :)

Re:

[lerefuge.livejournal.com]

When I mentionned the Americans, I pretty much meant Occident ;) Let's face it, it's all about the same... And you are right about it being an habit of the "developed" (even that word is pejorative) world. I can't say about it being human, but from what I learnt, it's not present in other cultures :) It's really typically American, and by extension of course, Occidental. I am far from being a psychologist or anthropologist either, but I have a huge interest in the later and have much fun viewing the world through an anthropologist eye ;) Speaking of which It's surprising Daniel got his anthropo degree at all with the way he is acting sometimes ;)

About Jack, I think you are raising very truthful points. Into which we sorta enter the very subjective area of : 'what makes a good team leader?' We could argue that if some attributes are not always very moral or respectful taken outside context, in a team situation of danger, or of stranger environment, it can be very useful. I think that's the Jack dilemna. His position is very precarious. He is more or less a diplomat, but he also has to be sure his team doesn't get hurt. Then again, we could discuss if it gives him the right to do some of the things he did... (see re the Nazi deal :)) Some of Jack personality enters in the addition too ;) Like the points you mentioned.

This is true about Jack and Daniel. I know it had been said ad nauseum, but what I like was that at first , both character were more than this antagonist. Through the seasons though, they became reduced to their own stereotype. We could talk about bad writing (and we do ;)), but it's also interesting to think that maybe the characters got caught in the act and felt they were emprisonned in this scheme and acted more out of obligation than anything inside it?

[alyse]

With regards to your second point, the Nazi like society in The Other Side, I got the impression that Jack was under considerable pressure to bring back some tangible results of gate travel in the form of big honkin' space guns. In almost four years, by that point, they have very little in terms of weaponry and what allies the Tau'ri have have proved to be unwilling to involve themselves, as we touched on earlier :) I think Jack is suffering from a huge amount of frustration, because he also wants to see that type of benefit. He's a soldier - he understands the concept of needing something tangible with which to defend themselves from any more Goa'uld invasion attempts. That doesn't mean that he doesn't understand the need for allies, or Daniel's need to find out more about the operation of the Universe, but he's tired of doors slamming in their faces. I think, to a certain extent, he doesn't want to look a gift horse in the mouth. He doesn't want to be forced to consider what their motives are, which is why he reacts so badly to Daniel's attempts to dig beneath the surface. He wants a mission where he can walk through the gate, get some defence and walk back through again with no injuries and Earth in a better defensive position. He won't face facts until Alar makes a racist remark about Teal'c to his face and he can't hide his head in the sand any longer.

To give Jack credit he does apologise to Daniel (kind of :)), and make Daniel dig. And as for what he does to Alar... well, I see that as a combination of wounded pride, pissed offness and cold, hard pragmatism.

He knows what his superiors are like. He knows that they'll overlook Alar's racist leanings in exchange for what he knows - they did it with Nazi scientists and nothing's changed since then. And I think, on some level, he feels that Alar needs to be punished for committing attempted genocide, or rather for continuing the attempted genocide started by his father. And so he sets himself up as judge, jury and executioner.

He has no right to do that, of course, but the one saving grace in my eyes, and probably his own, is that he did warn Alar what would happen if he followed them. But even that is a cold comfort. Alar was limited in his choices, and Jack knew that. It probably lets him sleep at night though. And I suspect that during his Special Ops days Jack may have done worse - but he's been changed from the suicidal man in the movie, not just through Daniel's influence but the knowledge that out there is something bigger indeed.

That's my thoughts anyway ::g::

Re:

[lerefuge.livejournal.com]

About your first point, it's quite true that Jack is under pressure. But if you can't do the job, don't do it ;) If he feels that way and cannot cop with everything the missions impose, he should take a vacation or get out. Sorta crude, but what he did to that man was even more. If I remember right, Jack,s attitude was very ambiguous when he left through the Stargate. That's a reason why this event bugged me so much. he was the last to go, and Alar asked to come, saying he had nowhere to go. Jack doesn't say anything. He just looks at him and slowly turns around and go through the stargate. In fact, if you don't know Jack (which Alar of course didn't), and if you come from another culture than American (which was the case), you could totally take his gesture as acceptance. How someone from another culture, that doesn,t know personally the man, understand that those body language mean "Don't follow me" ? It's impossible. It was like Jack purposefully, on the moment, thought that Akar would follow and he could close the iris. That,s why he said nothing. he detached himself form the action. "It's not my fault he followed me, I didn't tell him to!", but he hoped he would. See what I mean? I had hoped we would get more Sam angst out of it, form the look she gave Jack when he ordered to close the iris. It could have been very interesting. But alas.

You said that Jack warned Alar what would happen? I don't think so... I would have to check, but I don't recall Jack telling him anything.

I am realistic. I know we could rule this on simple bad writing. Because I don't think that it's really in character with Jack to do such a thing. Even if he did worst things during his Special Ops days, he never acted like that before in the SGC (That I know anyways). It just pisses me off what they did with Jack. =)

[wisdomeagle]

Here from metagate and don't especially have anything to say except this:

I've taken to differentiating between inter-species (which covers a heck of a lot of pairings in a lot of fanda, including, oh, John/Aeryn) and pairings that cross sentience barriers. This includes some interspecies pairings, but also extreme pedophilia, or sex with someone mentally incompetant, etc. With the idea being that there are different levels of sentience. Perhaps not the best distinction (as we evolve, do we become more self aware, or just smarter?) but more useful than "bestiality," which really doesn't have much meaning in a lot of fandoms.

[tenaya.livejournal.com]

To me it's more of a problem of how to depict a courtship/sex between the two. While Daniel and Chaka can struggle to get across a few basic words and ideas, anything more is impossible at the moment. Deep meaningful conversations are out.

Courtship is either very species dependant or a cultural thing, with lots of subtle cues that, if you're outside that particular subset, you aren't going to get them right. I'm sorry, but I don't see Chaka bringing Daniel flowers and chocolates. He might bring him some other type gift, but Daniel probably won't interpret it right.

Sex is also not a higher brain function. Pure lust between humans frequently produces something that is very basic and animalistic. If Chaka wants to mate with Daniel, I'm thinking that realistically, it is going to be fairly animalistic, particularly since there won't be much dialogue to go with it.

As for Daniel, I have trouble putting him in a mindset of wanting to have sex with Chaka. Without that passion, he is not going to be emotionally on the same plane as Chaka. How else can Daniel view the coupling except in a basic/animalistic way? Actually, I would venture anytime there is non-con sex, the powerless person would view the procedings as fairly animalistic. Imho.

Then there is the fannish kink that if your going to have a human have sex with an alien, shouldn't you attempt to invent something alien about them or the experience?

My bottom line is that it would be very difficult to write the story you would like to read.