I'm getting all philosophical again.

In her reply to my post about being a canon whore, [livejournal.com profile] shellmidwife mentioned something about how the events of the series, even if they're later than the time period in which she's writing about, affect her view of the characters.

And I thought that this was a fascinating insight, because I know that I have the same feeling when I'm writing. I call it, in my own mind, foreshadowing. To me it's more about characterisation than it is about canon, because although the 'canon' thing hasn't happened yet (for example Daniel leaving in Meridian), the knowledge that something like that to my mind has to influence a writer to a certain extent. And some of that knowledge can be used to have a wonderful impact on both the way that a writer handles her scenario, and the subjects that she chooses to tackle, but can also have an impact on the reader. For example, I loved [livejournal.com profile] destina's Bone Deep (and I suck because I'm not sure if I've ever told her that directly). There was an air of sadness about it, and a lot of angst as it dealt with events post Menace but what made it worse was that I, as the reader, knew that they were never going to get a chance to make everything all right between them. Even if the characters in the story didn't know they'd run out of time, they still had that feeling - foreshadowing in its true sense rather than my wittering on about it.

The most obvious example of this kind of knowledge, to me in my own writing is how I write Daniel. I simply can't write Season 1 or 2 Daniel. He's too optimistic, too naive, too unbowed by the events yet to come. Whenever I try he simply comes across to me as wrong. The events of the later seasons, and the character development he goes through as a result of those events, are simply too strongly ingrained into my memory for this person to make sense to me. I start reading it back and wanting to make him snappier, more snarky, show the effect that Jack has had on him, an effect that even Daniel acknowledges in Watergate. Give him that world weary edge to his compassion that makes him fascinating to me.

In other words, I can't go back to earlier seasons Daniel because I've had that glimpse into the future and it's coloured my view of him. I'd love to, for example, explore the effect of Hathor on him, both in Hathor (season 1) and Out of Mind/Into the Fire (Season 2/3 two parter) but I've only been able to tackle it obliquely, using later season Daniel looking back.

And this can't be the only fandom that this happens in, and I can't be the only writer who finds it affecting them. In Smallville, for example, there's the knowledge that sooner or later Lex and Clark will end up on opposing sides. Buffy and Angel writers have to deal with the deaths of some of their favourite characters, the despair and weight that others deal with as they grow up or deal with events. Is anyone still writing perky Season 1 Buffy? Or are they dealing with canon as it's happening now? And if so, is it because of the same reasons - the fact that since you know what's going to happen, you cannot ignore it.

How do other writers deal with it? I just find the whole thing fascinating.

From: [identity profile] tasha27.livejournal.com


I feel the same way most of the time. That's one of the reasons I always try and keep up to date with a show even if it's reading episode transcripts if I haven't seen the current season before I start writing a fic. Once I start writing a fic I can stick with the time line I began with (usually :-)), but before I start typing I know some people are going to have more experience with the characters than I do and it will change their character view and I don't want mine to be out of date so I research stuff.

Even then once I've started writing I will incorporate things gleaned about the characters later on (since it can take me years to finish a fic ::g::), not necessarily with events, but having seen them react to something, if a similar premise occurs in the inprogress fic then the likelihood is they will react in the same way even though the fic universe never had that event from a canon perspective. (Did that make sense?)

However, I don't find that I do the same with the whole foreshadowing thing in quite the same way: in that I never think the events of canon will have to happen. Then again a lot of what I read/write will never reach that point because being of the weird the universe often takes a left turn where canon would never have gone and puts a spanner in everything :-). When I read/write a fic I mostly do so as a pocket universe in that now that something that is not canon has occured it does not necesarily mean that canon will occur. So I know how the characters will react to a situation if it were to happen, but I don't tend to assume that it will. I think this is refelected a lot in what I choose to read and is most likely the reason I do not often read fic that is episode like.

Hence I agree writing 1st or 2nd season Daniel would be very difficult for me as it is for you and I doubt I could pull it off, but reading 5th season Daniel I don't necessarily see him ascending.

Also when I write Methos from Highlander, I know he was one of the Four Horsemen even though in the set of Highlander stories I've written (am writing the fourth one, but only on page 15) they broke away from canon before Something Wicked which was way before Revelation. In fact Kronos et al are the whole premise for the fourth story, but in my now very AU universe :-). Methos has a darker side, he is not simply the strange and appealing mystery he was when he first appeared, but in my little universe the others don't know why yet.

Sometimes I wish I could go back to simpler characters like perky Richie,grad-student Methos or alergies Daniel, but in the end they're far more interesting as is :-).

From: [identity profile] temaris.livejournal.com


I'm writing an au version of a season two sentinel episode. And the *only* way I can keep from doing the edginess and miscommunications of the later third and fourth seasons is to rewatch the episode periodically, and rewrite the story accordingly. I don't know if this is because I can't keep later knowledge out of my writing, or because I find happiness much harder to write without snarkiness than relationships where there is tension, fear and the potential of betrayal. I keep thinking that happiness ought to be easier to write, but I also start getting fluff-alerts as I do it, revert to snark, and bang, I'm back with 4/3rd season characterisations.

Corollary: Do all shows end up dark(er) as the seasons pass?

From: [identity profile] tasha27.livejournal.com


Corollary: Do all shows end up dark(er) as the seasons pass?

I think they have to. Once a show leaves its first season, for the characters to develope I don't think they can be happy all the time (even the Waltons weren't happy all the time :-)). The characters become deeper and we see their dark sides and to do this the show becomes darker.

What frustrates me is when really good shows leave behind their premise to investigate the cruel and unusual relationships their characters are having. Take for example the Ruth Rendell mysteries they used to do: I loved the first few and then suddenly half the plot was being spent on why Inspector Wexford was depressed this week. Some people love this: as for me it gets on my nerves ::g::.

From: [identity profile] jenniek45.livejournal.com


How do other writers deal with it? I just find the whole thing fascinating.

Likewise :) I must admit, I've noticed this with SG1 much more than with the New Pros or Old Pros, mainly because SG1 is much more into canon, so there are more long-lasting consequences to get involved with. But I think that's why the SG1 fics I've done are much darker in tone than any of the others, and I tend to finish on more ambiguous notes than the happy ever after fics I've been used to doing - because I can't disassociate myself from canon and what is to come. (ie: my post Legacy fic is set, obviously, before Jack and Daniel started to fall apart, and yet I can't seem to write Happy!Daniel in that one, because my view of him will always be coloured by what happens in the later seasons.)

I haven't tried to go back to season one and base a story there yet, but like others, I get the feeling it would be very difficult. On the other hand, foreshadowing like that can make a story much more powerful, imho, particularly for a story like Destina's (thanks for the url, Al :)) where like you said, Al, at the end you know they're trying to put things right, but you know from canon that they'll never get the chance. It adds another level, and a sense of poignancy to the story that wouldn't necessarily have been there otherwise. Particularly now that Daniel has ascended, I've found it very difficult since to think of SG-1 as a 'happy' environment for a story, because there's just too much linked with it in my head to really be able to separate what has and what will happen.

(Not sure if this is making any sense, but I think that was basically a very long-winded 'me too' *g*)

From: [identity profile] jenniek45.livejournal.com


The New Pros should be a 'dark' universe as well, and yet, for all that and for all the angsty fics there are also 'happy' fics in abundance

Oh, I completely agree. And if you look at fics like Roulette, or any of Nemesis' stuff it is dark, but personally I don't think of it as as dark as Stargate. And I think if the New Pros was going to be influenced by something very humourous, like the Cats Tales series, then you'd have to say something similar for Stargate, because of fics like Dr Jackson's Diary et al.

I wonder whether the more 'dark' fic and overall tone of Stargate (imho) has something to do with the different style of the show itself. Not only does Stargate deal with more 'dark' issues than the New Pros (like Sha're's death, drug addiction etc, though I think this is partly because they've had 6 series to fill, and I suspect the New Pros would have done the same had it been given a chance), but also because of the way they end each episode.

The New Pros always ended with a cheerful 'everyone's safe, back together and skipping off into the sunset' epilogue scene, whereas Stargate almost never does, so imho the lingering feeling you get from the episodes is much more thought provoking, because none of the issues are ever really resolved, which is more realistic and less 'cheerful', if you know what I mean. I think that seeps over into the fic as well, because most New Pros fic, even the really dark stuff ends on quite a hopeful note, like the series itself, whereas a lot of the Stargate fic I've read ends on a much more uncertain note (like I've found myself writing), and there's often doubt as to whether things ever can return to 'normal', which I don't think you find in New Pros.

From: [identity profile] luigifish.livejournal.com


Mmm...I think I develop an overview of a programme / character and just use whichever bits I think are relevant for whatever story I'm writing (or at least that is where my JAG bunnies are taking me - can't really count NPs with only 1 series :)) I don't think there's any way you can avoid being affected - you watch an episode, it gets the bunnies hopping but when you write you're not *copying* the episode, you're adding to the universe of whatever series you write for (that probably makes no sense at all :)). The only time this possibly might not be true is if you write a piece that directly follows on from an episode that you've only just seen, that is brand new. Even then I could imagine you'd end up changing the story as more episodes aired - it would explain why on some archives people have written more than one story inspired by the same episode.

From: [identity profile] munchkinott.livejournal.com


I'm heavily into dead TV (shows that either met their end after one season or are currently thrashing about in their death throes), don't know if that's by choice or by accident. Just seems to be the way it falls for me.

I know when it comes to long-running shows I do a canon lockdown - focus on a few eps and say after this point canon ends here. Which is, really the only way to handle series where you've got insane amounts of production indulgence, lots of eps etc etc and logic has become an accessory not an essential.

Characterisation is the ticket though. I agree with you wholeheartedly on that point. I've found myself a few times writing SG-1 S1 & bunnies with Dark!Daniel because he just sounds right as a line through from the movie.

I'm not a fan of perky characters in general. Going back over the shows I've watched through my life. S1 Buffy, I liked 'cause it was cheery people handling a totally uncheery idea. When the characters started to get that Shakespearian tragedy bent I gave up on it. Same happened when Red Dwarf started taking itself too seriously. Highlander, I picked at and sniffed at for years because it just didn't have any echoes from the films for me until the introduction of the MOST sarcastic n' moody bastard known to mankind. *g*
Angel bored me to tears without Doyle.

And one of the main reasons I gave up with XF years n' yeeeeeears ago was I couldn't fucking cope with Mulder being dull and boring and Krycek being cheery-boy and no Scully around to shed a ray of sanity. (Oh how times have changed... *cough*)

The characters I like are effectively multi layered. They have the light, they also tend to have a mind that inhabits the darkness. I love the pessimists, the cynics, the sarky bastards who make the world go round. They fascinate me. Whenever I see cheeriness I want to stamp on it, grind it out and give it an angsty twist.

With the NPs, I was spoiled for choice. Both Sam and Chris exhibited those same threads of dark tendencies. Backup didn't, which is why I always had hell writing Backup.

In short, as a writer or a viewer, how the hell are we supposed to SEE a 3 dimensional character unless there's shadow with the light?

From: [identity profile] destina.livejournal.com


Just wanted to say thank you for the lovely compliment. :-)

In some ways, I think it's easier to write the characters at any point in time, now that I've seen all the episodes with Daniel. We have closed canon to work with, for now, and I think it's less work to write Daniel at any place in the series when we have context for how much he's changed and how much he has yet to experience. Does that make sense? It makes it easier for me to frame his behavior, to add details about who he is now and what he's becoming, and what he's learned.

There have been ideas I've had that I knew would work best at a particular point in series canon; some ideas spring forth from eps, but some don't, and the plot sort of tells me where the story belongs in the timeline. I seem to be stuck around mid-season three to around mid season four, with the range of events and character development there. Once in a while, I've taken a short foray over to the end of season five. *g* Part of the challenge of writing the characters, then, is to focus on the characterization at that moment in time, and to make the characters true to what they've been through, and what challenges they will yet face. In that way, some deliberate foreshadowing is certainly possible, and I jump at the chance to use it to add depth, when I can.

I think I'm rambling. I think I need a nap. *g*
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