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musesfool has made me think about the oft-quoted 'misogyny being rife within slash'. Now, I should make it clear that musesfool didn't say that, it's just that what she did say sent my mind tripping down various little sidestreets and a story I've been (trying to) reading this morning has set these vague thoughts in a more concrete form.
There is no doubt misogyny within slash, just like there's misogyny in het or gen.thewildmole's rants about stories that actually state 'women are more physically suited to surviving rape', for example (and isn't it a sad state that there's more than one author within a fandom throwing that around?) highlights the fact that there are some women who don't appear to like and/or respect other women very much. No doubt there are some men who are the same.
However, what many, many people see as 'misogyny' I see as being symptomatic of something very different. 'How dare you threaten my OTP... bitch!' In other words, the portrayal of Sam in many Stargate Slash stories is because she threatens Jack/Daniel, not because she's a woman. The non-portrayal of Sam in many slash stories may be the same, but it may also be that a) some people find writing Sam difficult (me! me!), b) how exactly do you incorporate Sam within a slash PWP in any meaningful fashion (and riffing off that, why are there so many more Jack/Daniel/Teal'c threesome fics than there are Jack/Daniel/Sam?) and c) if you find the relationship between Jack and Daniel to be the thing that makes you want to write fanfiction (and I'm sure that I'm not the only one who writes fanfiction for different reasons to watching the show - I write fanfiction to explore what I don't get onscreen, not to continue what I do) then you're focusing on one very small aspect anyway, so the lack of the other characters isn't necessarily any indication that you don't like Sam, or that as a person within the confines of the show on screen you don't yell 'Go, Sam!' when she does something particularly cool.
::deep breath::
But the portrayal of female characters within slash fic as some indication of some deep loathing of women as a whole? In short, that one of the reaons that slashers generally write slash is because women are icky and het sex is icky? That I don't get. (Yes, I have made jokes about OMG, I wrote het! but, you know, it's a joke and is related to what I mentioned above. I get the het flirting onscreen, thank you kindly. Therefore no burning need to explore it unless it's something like Sam/McKay which was tragically, tragically cut short, IMHO)
There may be women who write slash because somehow they see men as being superior to women - sexually as well as within societal constraints - and therefore feel the need to put down women within their stories. But, to use Stargate as an example again, if they hate women generally so much, why is it only Sam who is demonised within some slash. How come Janet is never portrayed as an evil, skanky bitch?(1) Because if you're a misogynist, isn't a successful medical doctor just as much of a target as a successful major?
The story I'm reading is Harry/Hermione and has Cho in it. Apparently it's one of the H/Hr stories out there, with its own yahoogroup for fans. I wouldn't know - I know very little about the HP fandom and looked it up following a post in fandom wank. It's... I'd say 'bad' but it doesn't meet the criteria for truly badfic. It's just mediocre - flat, uninteresting with huge chunks of exposition explaining who the characters are (you know the thing. 'Hermione Granger sighed as she walked through the door. She'd returned from her job after (cue Hermione's life history up to that point)) just shoved in there. It's also chockful of Cho dislike. She's a scheming, self-obsessed individual who only wants to take Harry from Hermione, and apparently has committed the cardinal sin of OMG dating Harry and wanting him back. Solely because she wants to improve her standing, not because she'd actually care about him.
Sound familiar? In fact, sounds exactly like women who threaten the OTP within slashfic, doesn't it? However, I don't think anyone would point at this story and say 'OMG, just look at this story. How misogynistic!' I suspect that it only stands out more within slash stories because of the lack of female characters generally, plus I think there's a handy kind of shorthand in making the female character express some distaste for hot boy on boy action to show her unworthiness and lack of understanding of the boys. But I don't think that's any different than having Cho, for example, express her surprise that Harry would choose Hermione because she's, you know, Hermione, a boring brainiac with bushy hair. It's all about making the threat look unworthy and the OTP triumphing against all odds. 'Why would you want a man? God, that's disgusting.' equals 'Why would you want Hermione? God, she's plain.' And frankly I don't have time for either.
Yes, I know this isn't a huge leap but I had fun with it anyway. It's been a long time since I had the inclination or energy to go even vaguely meta.
There is one thing I am thankful for, and that's that JP III appears to be devoid of Ellie bashing. I think Ellie is incredibly cool and would have to aim a very hard Paddington Bear stare at anyone who dissed her. I suspect, however, that part of the reason she's been spared (apart from the fact that it's such a small fandom that not every behaviour exhibited in larger fandoms is present) is that at the start of JP III she's obviously happily married, with children and a life she's content with, and is therefore no longer a threat to Alan and Billy. Unfortunately it's also the reason I can't write threesome fic with a clear conscience. Which is a pity, because I suspect that Ellie and Billy would get along like a house on fire because they're both insightful, even if Billy seems to lack Ellie's sarcasm, and they both think the world of Alan. I can so see them running rings around Alan.
Ah well. There's always Pirates of the Caribbean, with a threesome that's practically canon.
(1 - I make an exception for portraying Anise in fanfiction like this, because she's an evil, skanky bitch in canon. ::g::)
musesfool has made me think about the oft-quoted 'misogyny being rife within slash'. Now, I should make it clear that musesfool didn't say that, it's just that what she did say sent my mind tripping down various little sidestreets and a story I've been (trying to) reading this morning has set these vague thoughts in a more concrete form.There is no doubt misogyny within slash, just like there's misogyny in het or gen.
thewildmole's rants about stories that actually state 'women are more physically suited to surviving rape', for example (and isn't it a sad state that there's more than one author within a fandom throwing that around?) highlights the fact that there are some women who don't appear to like and/or respect other women very much. No doubt there are some men who are the same.However, what many, many people see as 'misogyny' I see as being symptomatic of something very different. 'How dare you threaten my OTP... bitch!' In other words, the portrayal of Sam in many Stargate Slash stories is because she threatens Jack/Daniel, not because she's a woman. The non-portrayal of Sam in many slash stories may be the same, but it may also be that a) some people find writing Sam difficult (me! me!), b) how exactly do you incorporate Sam within a slash PWP in any meaningful fashion (and riffing off that, why are there so many more Jack/Daniel/Teal'c threesome fics than there are Jack/Daniel/Sam?) and c) if you find the relationship between Jack and Daniel to be the thing that makes you want to write fanfiction (and I'm sure that I'm not the only one who writes fanfiction for different reasons to watching the show - I write fanfiction to explore what I don't get onscreen, not to continue what I do) then you're focusing on one very small aspect anyway, so the lack of the other characters isn't necessarily any indication that you don't like Sam, or that as a person within the confines of the show on screen you don't yell 'Go, Sam!' when she does something particularly cool.
::deep breath::
But the portrayal of female characters within slash fic as some indication of some deep loathing of women as a whole? In short, that one of the reaons that slashers generally write slash is because women are icky and het sex is icky? That I don't get. (Yes, I have made jokes about OMG, I wrote het! but, you know, it's a joke and is related to what I mentioned above. I get the het flirting onscreen, thank you kindly. Therefore no burning need to explore it unless it's something like Sam/McKay which was tragically, tragically cut short, IMHO)
There may be women who write slash because somehow they see men as being superior to women - sexually as well as within societal constraints - and therefore feel the need to put down women within their stories. But, to use Stargate as an example again, if they hate women generally so much, why is it only Sam who is demonised within some slash. How come Janet is never portrayed as an evil, skanky bitch?(1) Because if you're a misogynist, isn't a successful medical doctor just as much of a target as a successful major?
The story I'm reading is Harry/Hermione and has Cho in it. Apparently it's one of the H/Hr stories out there, with its own yahoogroup for fans. I wouldn't know - I know very little about the HP fandom and looked it up following a post in fandom wank. It's... I'd say 'bad' but it doesn't meet the criteria for truly badfic. It's just mediocre - flat, uninteresting with huge chunks of exposition explaining who the characters are (you know the thing. 'Hermione Granger sighed as she walked through the door. She'd returned from her job after (cue Hermione's life history up to that point)) just shoved in there. It's also chockful of Cho dislike. She's a scheming, self-obsessed individual who only wants to take Harry from Hermione, and apparently has committed the cardinal sin of OMG dating Harry and wanting him back. Solely because she wants to improve her standing, not because she'd actually care about him.
Sound familiar? In fact, sounds exactly like women who threaten the OTP within slashfic, doesn't it? However, I don't think anyone would point at this story and say 'OMG, just look at this story. How misogynistic!' I suspect that it only stands out more within slash stories because of the lack of female characters generally, plus I think there's a handy kind of shorthand in making the female character express some distaste for hot boy on boy action to show her unworthiness and lack of understanding of the boys. But I don't think that's any different than having Cho, for example, express her surprise that Harry would choose Hermione because she's, you know, Hermione, a boring brainiac with bushy hair. It's all about making the threat look unworthy and the OTP triumphing against all odds. 'Why would you want a man? God, that's disgusting.' equals 'Why would you want Hermione? God, she's plain.' And frankly I don't have time for either.
Yes, I know this isn't a huge leap but I had fun with it anyway. It's been a long time since I had the inclination or energy to go even vaguely meta.
There is one thing I am thankful for, and that's that JP III appears to be devoid of Ellie bashing. I think Ellie is incredibly cool and would have to aim a very hard Paddington Bear stare at anyone who dissed her. I suspect, however, that part of the reason she's been spared (apart from the fact that it's such a small fandom that not every behaviour exhibited in larger fandoms is present) is that at the start of JP III she's obviously happily married, with children and a life she's content with, and is therefore no longer a threat to Alan and Billy. Unfortunately it's also the reason I can't write threesome fic with a clear conscience. Which is a pity, because I suspect that Ellie and Billy would get along like a house on fire because they're both insightful, even if Billy seems to lack Ellie's sarcasm, and they both think the world of Alan. I can so see them running rings around Alan.
Ah well. There's always Pirates of the Caribbean, with a threesome that's practically canon.
(1 - I make an exception for portraying Anise in fanfiction like this, because she's an evil, skanky bitch in canon. ::g::)
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I'm not really in the mindset right now to reply with any type of intellectual response, but i just wanted to say i agreed with everything you said, and if you were to write that PotC threesome i would adore you into the afterlife ;)
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Yep. To bring in a new aspect, you just have to look at the way female fans (without fic ties), act on celebrity message boards when a celeb's photographed at a function with a female companion.
The. Knives. Come. Out. *shudders* BIG STYLE.
Hate to say alot of anti-woman sentiment in fan fic is down to genetic bitch complexes. But, women are a HELL of a lot more territorial than we get credit for or are prepared to admit. In literary form that translates to pairing/genre tunnel vision (shuttered characterisation and demonisation of the female characters that threaten 'my ship'). In gossip it comes out as 'ugh, THOSE shoes? with THAT dress??'
I do wonder if this happens within femslash. And also would be interested to see if 'male character demonisation' exists outside of fandoms with volatile fan divisions.
In other words, the portrayal of Sam in many Stargate Slash stories is because she threatens Jack/Daniel, not because she's a woman.
I think with SG-1 it's got a lot more to do with fandom climates. Say you 'like Sam' on a m/m slash list and you're signing your own death warrant. Which also explains why fewer people are prepared to take on J/D/S threesomes. This also happens a lot with XF fic (I've lost count, and lost interest because of the number of Mu/K fics that portray Scully as the fourth Fury). Another case in point is CSI, where the het-slash threesomes are non-existant (that I've found) while the slash threesomes abound. (as does the lack of mentioning female characters)
Being fair I think there's a LOT of fear when it comes to writing fiction, as a woman, that if you're NOT careful you could turn a female canon character into a Mary-Sue.[**] And in doing so, face a shitstorm.
But, otoh, there is a lot of threat neutralisation going on. As most characters are canonically 'straight' the main, perceivable threat to the 'perfect slash' is always going to be the main canon female. Leaving an author with only three options: Neutralise, eliminate or defame.
My final conclusion is it all comes down to the fandom community. i.e. What's going to improve your individual standing within a section of fandom? If you do this, that and the other - will YOU be popular, or will YOU lose support?
Yup. It's all 'how to write fanfic, win friends AND influence people'. :-D Sad but true. And now I'll just wait quietly and SMACKDOWN all of my UNWORTHY DETRACTORS!!11!omgWfTLOLO!!1! ;-)
Ah well. There's always Pirates of the Caribbean, with a threesome that's practically canon.
Thank. Fucking. GOD!
(1 - I make an exception for portraying Anise in fanfiction like this, because she's an evil, skanky bitch in canon. ::g::)
[** She's a canon Mary-Sue, and doesn't count. ;-)]
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Gawd, I'm a right pompous twat on a Thursday morning aren't I? *blinks*
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Alchemy by
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I'm not quite sure if he means Hector or me. I suspect both.
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Hate to say alot of anti-woman sentiment in fan fic is down to genetic bitch complexes. But, women are a HELL of a lot more territorial than we get credit for or are prepared to admit. In literary form that translates to pairing/genre tunnel vision (shuttered characterisation and demonisation of the female characters that threaten 'my ship'). In gossip it comes out as 'ugh, THOSE shoes? with THAT dress??'
I want to have its little meta babies. Or maybe not, but you know what I mean. I hadn't actually been as coherent as to think of these things in territorial terms, but I think you've hit the nail on the head with that one. It is territorial behaviour rather than misogyny, and you're quite correct in that analogies can be seen in connection with actor worship. I always feel so sorry for the poor women who enter into relationships with Lust Objects. They're so demonised for doing nothing.
I think with SG-1 it's got a lot more to do with fandom climates. Say you 'like Sam' on a m/m slash list and you're signing your own death warrant. Which also explains why fewer people are prepared to take on J/D/S threesomes.
I think that fandom divides are not helping, but I can't help but wonder about whether this phenomenon is at the root of the fandom divide. I know the Candy Boys attitude didn't help, and that Malozzi's interactions with the Sam/Jack shippers gave them the kind of power that they had to try to lord it over the rest of the fandom, which resulted in a great deal of bitterness, but isn't this same phenomenon at the root of it. The Sam/Jack shippers saw Daniel as a threat, and therefore demonised him (and his fans), and the Jack/Daniel shippers saw Sam as a threat and did likewise, boosted by what they saw as justifiable outrage when some of the Sam/Jack shippers got nasty. A little bit of power is a dangerous thing.
And, judging by recent posts, the HP fandom is just as riven by interpairing squabbles between the H/Hr, R/Hr, H/G shippers. And that's before you throw the slash pairings into the mix.
Meh. Far as I'm concerned everyone should just chill and everytime you feel the urge to diss someone else's ship (1) you should get over yourself and write an orgy. That way there'd be enough sex to go around.
Yup. It's all 'how to write fanfic, win friends AND influence people'
You're right, it is sad and I suspect that's also part of the reason I stick to smaller fandoms, so that my inner ego monster will be at least semi-reined in. It's kind of difficult to get too full of yourself when feedback is virtually non-existent. On the other hand, does it make it easier to be, like, the bestest writer evar in fandom when your fandom numbers in single digits? Oh dear. I can feel the Ego rising.
And now I'll just wait quietly and SMACKDOWN all of my UNWORTHY DETRACTORS!!11!omgWfTLOLO!!1! ;-)
And they so need to be smacked down! Beyotches, each and everyone of them.
1 - except Jack/Thor because that's just wrong. Everyone knows it's Thor/Heimdahl (2)
2 - this is a joke, just in case anyone takes me seriously
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Aww. META BABIES! (they're like the Muppet Babies only with added Satre)
I always feel so sorry for the poor women who enter into relationships with Lust Objects. They're so demonised for doing nothing.
Or pelted with compliments SO backhanded you can just hear the grudging "Well she IS pretty...BITCH!" (when did we leave public executions behind in the mists of civilisation? 19th century? Doesn't feel like it.)
I think that fandom divides are not helping, but I can't help but wonder about whether this phenomenon is at the root of the fandom divide.
I think you're right. Though it's more power games than true territorial behaviour. i.e. Who has the power to control a TV show's canon? S/J shippers or J/D shippers?
The answer, of course, is neither. Mallozzi just likes getting his ego massaged and holding court with the adoring. *shrugs*
Meh. Far as I'm concerned everyone should just chill and everytime you feel the urge to diss someone else's ship (1) you should get over yourself and write an orgy. That way there'd be enough sex to go around.
Too bloody RIGHT! Preferably one with jello wrestling or Tom Bombadil - or jello wrestling AND Tom Bombadil. :-D
I don't think there's a single fandom which hasn't, in the past, or won't, in the future, have some kind of pairing thumbwar.
I mean, who wouldn't turn down some nice and flamey hair-pulling once in a while?
You're right, it is sad and I suspect that's also part of the reason I stick to smaller fandoms, so that my inner ego monster will be at least semi-reined in. It's kind of difficult to get too full of yourself when feedback is virtually non-existent.
I stay away from fandom. Plain and simple. As insular as it sounds. I've made LOTS of friends who are very important to me and I'm glad I have them in my RL. Sycophants I don't need - either myself, or to become one in pursuit of fitting into fandom. /wank
On the other hand, does it make it easier to be, like, the bestest writer evar in fandom when your fandom numbers in single digits? Oh dear. I can feel the Ego rising.
oMg uR SO rItgHT! Praise me PRAISE ME! Like you SHOULD! *snerk*
And they so need to be smacked down! Beyotches, each and everyone of them.
They need the comfy chair. Oh yes indeed. SHOW THEM THE COMFY CHAIR!
- except Jack/Thor because that's just wrong. Everyone knows it's Thor/Heimdahl
*chants* Thor! Thor! Thor! Asgard Horndog ra-ra-ra!
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Casey
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Peace through Porn! Yay!