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Apart from the squee - and, man, there was a lot of squee! Can I just say how much I adore Rodney? And Teyla? And Sheppard, even when he's being a bit of a prat? And Weir... hmmm... will put behind spoilers cut - I had some thoughts. Some metaish thoughts. And they are chock full of spoilery goodness, so are also going behind an lj-cut.
I think that the Ancients built the nanovirus. In fact, I'm convinced of it. After all, the only thing we have to suggest that there is a third race, who may have made it, is Carson's projecting that the Ancients were actually benevolent and wise and good.
I am far from convinced that that's actually the case. The Ancients, as a race, have made me feel incredibly twitchy ever since we first encountered Oma Desala.
First of all, why do I think the Ancients made the nanovirus, or were at the bare minimum, complicit in its making?
i) it was found in an Ancient's lab. Okay, not damning. It could have been made by someone else, and they were working on a cure. Possibly. Although why, given that they were battling desperately with the Wraith and all of their attention should have been focused on that, I don't know
ii) It kills the Wraith's food source
iii) it does not, however, kill anyone with the ATA gene.
I don't believe that that is a coincidence. The nanovirus was engineered - of course it was, they're tiny machines - and I find it completely implausible that an engineered virus coincidentally manages to spare those who possess the ATA gene. It's simply too statistically unlikely. There's been a theory that the ATA gene expresses itself as a series of proteins, and I suppose that these could possibly affect the operation of the nanoviruses, but the idea that it's just coincidental that this particular set of proteins affect them?
Don't buy it. The only way, to my mind, that that could have happened in machines like the nanoviruses is if it was programmed to happen. Everything else about those little buggers was deliberate, and I'm betting that was too. And if the Ancients themselves did not make it, then they were most certainly complicit in the making of them.
In terms of canon, why do I believe that the Ancients are capable of that kind of cold blooded calculation? Because I believe that canon has shown them to be.
Look at it this way - they're meddlers. All of the 'elder' races, bar the Nox, have been shown as meddlers. The Nox are merely annoyingly superior, but the Asgard have taken cloning to the point that it's not actually sustainable for them anymore. Their cells have degraded too much, and they're forced to seek out frozen samples from millenia ago to solve the problem. And the reason for cloning is a type of immortality - imprinting personalities on new clones so that the personality can live forever.
The Ancients ascended, and there's now canon evidence that they didn't 'reach' that stage, they engineered it. Again, it's a type of immortality. And in doing so they imprisoned that dark creature for millenia, simply because they could. Regardless of what you think about it being the equivalent of a great white, that's just not right. There was evidence to suggest that it was semi-sentient, like it figuring out that the humans were tricking it with the switching of reactors around. I'm not going to get into an argument about animal vivisection, but it's interesting that a so called superior race of beings still practices it if their own survival is at stake. That's one thing the Nox don't do. It suggests a certain amount of... cold bloodedness about 'lower orders'.
The Nox have done the same re: immortality, with their powers to heal. Anyone want to guess whether that was natural, or something that they, too, had been working towards?
It all comes to the same thing - survival at all costs.
Kind of like the Goa'uld, huh? And speaking of the Goa'uld, what about the sarcophagus, and the healing device? Not to mention the ribbon device? The Goa'uld don't make technology - they scavenge it and appropriate it. Wonder where they got it?
And look at the Ancients' track record. They seeded worlds with humans. Why? I suspect it was a god complex. Really, I do. I think the Ancients were arrogant, condescending and viewed us as little more than entertaining chimps. They seem to be showing the same attitude over and over again now that they've ascended - interfering when it suits their purposes, and ignoring us and taking the moral high ground when it doesn't.
I don't think they have the humans' best interests at heart at all. I never have. They're too... smooth, slick, evasive, from what we've seen of them. They seeded worlds with little mini-mes, but they weren't really the same. A lesser version, without the superiority complex and the ATA gene. And in doing so, they awoke the Wraith who, according to the pilot, 'descended on the human worlds like a scourge'.
And what did the Ancients do?
They retreated to the safety of their city, and left the humans to it, while they hid behind their shield. And since they'd already abandoned Earth, because of the plague (and anyone want to guess that maybe that was a bit of genetic engineering gone awry?), which, coincidentally, left the humans there to their fate (since it killed them too), they worked on ascending as a way of getting out of the mess that they'd got themselves into. And when they finally solved that issue, they left the humans to their fate - the Wraith - while they sod off being mystical and stuff.
But not without still interfering.
In short, I'm not convinced that the Ancients were the good guys. I'm not convinced at all.
I also wondered about the Ancient technology and the need to use the ATA gene. The theory put forth on the show was that their technology had been designed to only operate with the ATA gene to stop the Wraith from using it. I do wonder, however, whether it was also to stop the inferior human race from using it. Sort of the ultimate class system.
You can use the gate, because we need to allow our pets to move around, but you don't get to play with any of the big toys.
And why do some humans have the ATA gene? Yeah... kind of worrying, isn't it? Suggests that there are some Ancients who were not averse to slumming it, as it were.
Which puts John's ancestry into perspective, doesn't it?
I just get that vibe from them, so, yes, I can well believe that the Ancients would be willing to bump off the humans in order to get rid of the Wraith. It seems to be keeping in character for them - leaving their messes behind and screw anyone who isn't us or one of the 'elder' races. After all, if the cure for AIDs was found tomorrow, and it involved killing off all chimpanzees, what do we think would happen?
But the clincher, for me, is that I come back again and again to the same thought.
Why would any other race engineer a nanovirus that killed anyone without the ATA gene?
And onto squeeage.
Rodney was so fucking cool in this ep. If I wasn't already head over heels with him, and the actor that plays him, I would have fallen all over again. Mind you, I've been saying this after every episode since Hide and Seek so maybe you shouldn't take that as anything.
He was kickass and take charge and wonderfully vulnerable and human and connecting to his team and so The Man that it's perfectly obvious now (at least to me) that if Elizabeth is in charge of the overall expedition, and John is in charge of military personnel, then Rodney is the man in charge of the scientists.
He was giving them orders - there was no doubting that - and they were obeying him. From the very first scene, even before the shit hit the fan, and he continued to give orders - and have them listened to - after that. And he didn't hesitate to call for an emergency lockdown, which showed a huge amount of foresight and spine, and contrasts interestingly enough with John's attitude. I'd love to say that I thought John's actions were about the fact that his lover was in peril, but I strongly suspect John's actions were more to do with the fact that Elizabeth's orders couldn't possibly apply to him.
Ford was a doll in this one, young and scared and impulsive and he is only 25, fcol. We forget that sometimes, but to me it explains both his attitude in this and in The Eye. And Carson was competent and sympathetic but thankfully didn't grab centre stage. I like him better when he's supporting and providing wry humour.
Teyla was kick ass. She kicked John's ass, both figuratively and literally. Loved the scene with the sticks. She was cool, calm and confident, and she took John down with no effort and then chastised him for not practicing. And it didn't come across as forced or 'we've got to stick this chick in a bikini and go for 'hot amazon'.
And then she told him, politely and in no uncertain terms, that he shouldn't have disregarded Elizabeth like that.
Which brings me onto my sticking point. Weir.
Now I like Weir. I think she's human and flawed and vulnerable and very out of her depth. So I foresaw this confrontation between Elizabeth and John coming from a mile off. But am I the only one who thinks that she brought it largely on herself?
She doesn't see John as a subordinate. She's been using him as a confidante, someone to shore her up when she's feeling vulnerable, and in doing so she's shown him her belly.
She's deferred to him on more than one occasion, has given him his head, and, even worse, has left decisions that she doesn't want to make to him, like the Hoffans and their use of Steve, and the trading of information and explosives to the Genii, both of which were very bad decisions. Which isn't entirely John's fault, but it does demonstrate a) John's tendency to rush into things and b) Elizabeth's inability or unwillingness to stop him.
She's out of her depth, and it shows, to be blunt. And worse, she's abrogated responsibility to him on more than one occasion, and therefore, while John shouldn't have done what he did, he's seen the side of Elizabeth that no one else has - the vacillitating side. The indecisive side. The 'weak' side. If you hand someone that power - if you place that burden on them because you can't or don't want to deal with it - you can hardly bitch when it backfires on you.
The confrontation was inevitable. She's simply not strong enough to rein him in. And given that, it's hardly surprising that this man - this man who she has been warned, in advance, will disobey orders if he disagrees with them and yet who she has still deferred to in situations where she doesn't want to deal and in fact has told him she doesn't want to deal - disobeys her. And is wrong again.
She should have been strong. She shouldn't have needed Teyla to kick his ass - she should have done it herself. She should have refused to power up the section so that John could get into it. She should have told him to wait there, and see if Petersen forced the doors and got himself out of the quarantined area, and then told him to deal with it. And if he wouldn't, she should have told Teyla, as the woman on the spot, to take him down.
I bet Teyla would have done it too.
By doing refusing to give into him again, she risked him ordering Bates to override her again, but by giving into him again, she lost control of the situation, and nothing in their little conversation at the end has resolved that.
In fact, I think she lost control of the situation weeks ago, and I'm not convinced that she can get it back.
It's an interesting dynamic, and it makes for an interesting tension and interesting characters, but it makes Elizabeth a poor leader, imho.
I think that the Ancients built the nanovirus. In fact, I'm convinced of it. After all, the only thing we have to suggest that there is a third race, who may have made it, is Carson's projecting that the Ancients were actually benevolent and wise and good.
I am far from convinced that that's actually the case. The Ancients, as a race, have made me feel incredibly twitchy ever since we first encountered Oma Desala.
First of all, why do I think the Ancients made the nanovirus, or were at the bare minimum, complicit in its making?
i) it was found in an Ancient's lab. Okay, not damning. It could have been made by someone else, and they were working on a cure. Possibly. Although why, given that they were battling desperately with the Wraith and all of their attention should have been focused on that, I don't know
ii) It kills the Wraith's food source
iii) it does not, however, kill anyone with the ATA gene.
I don't believe that that is a coincidence. The nanovirus was engineered - of course it was, they're tiny machines - and I find it completely implausible that an engineered virus coincidentally manages to spare those who possess the ATA gene. It's simply too statistically unlikely. There's been a theory that the ATA gene expresses itself as a series of proteins, and I suppose that these could possibly affect the operation of the nanoviruses, but the idea that it's just coincidental that this particular set of proteins affect them?
Don't buy it. The only way, to my mind, that that could have happened in machines like the nanoviruses is if it was programmed to happen. Everything else about those little buggers was deliberate, and I'm betting that was too. And if the Ancients themselves did not make it, then they were most certainly complicit in the making of them.
In terms of canon, why do I believe that the Ancients are capable of that kind of cold blooded calculation? Because I believe that canon has shown them to be.
Look at it this way - they're meddlers. All of the 'elder' races, bar the Nox, have been shown as meddlers. The Nox are merely annoyingly superior, but the Asgard have taken cloning to the point that it's not actually sustainable for them anymore. Their cells have degraded too much, and they're forced to seek out frozen samples from millenia ago to solve the problem. And the reason for cloning is a type of immortality - imprinting personalities on new clones so that the personality can live forever.
The Ancients ascended, and there's now canon evidence that they didn't 'reach' that stage, they engineered it. Again, it's a type of immortality. And in doing so they imprisoned that dark creature for millenia, simply because they could. Regardless of what you think about it being the equivalent of a great white, that's just not right. There was evidence to suggest that it was semi-sentient, like it figuring out that the humans were tricking it with the switching of reactors around. I'm not going to get into an argument about animal vivisection, but it's interesting that a so called superior race of beings still practices it if their own survival is at stake. That's one thing the Nox don't do. It suggests a certain amount of... cold bloodedness about 'lower orders'.
The Nox have done the same re: immortality, with their powers to heal. Anyone want to guess whether that was natural, or something that they, too, had been working towards?
It all comes to the same thing - survival at all costs.
Kind of like the Goa'uld, huh? And speaking of the Goa'uld, what about the sarcophagus, and the healing device? Not to mention the ribbon device? The Goa'uld don't make technology - they scavenge it and appropriate it. Wonder where they got it?
And look at the Ancients' track record. They seeded worlds with humans. Why? I suspect it was a god complex. Really, I do. I think the Ancients were arrogant, condescending and viewed us as little more than entertaining chimps. They seem to be showing the same attitude over and over again now that they've ascended - interfering when it suits their purposes, and ignoring us and taking the moral high ground when it doesn't.
I don't think they have the humans' best interests at heart at all. I never have. They're too... smooth, slick, evasive, from what we've seen of them. They seeded worlds with little mini-mes, but they weren't really the same. A lesser version, without the superiority complex and the ATA gene. And in doing so, they awoke the Wraith who, according to the pilot, 'descended on the human worlds like a scourge'.
And what did the Ancients do?
They retreated to the safety of their city, and left the humans to it, while they hid behind their shield. And since they'd already abandoned Earth, because of the plague (and anyone want to guess that maybe that was a bit of genetic engineering gone awry?), which, coincidentally, left the humans there to their fate (since it killed them too), they worked on ascending as a way of getting out of the mess that they'd got themselves into. And when they finally solved that issue, they left the humans to their fate - the Wraith - while they sod off being mystical and stuff.
But not without still interfering.
In short, I'm not convinced that the Ancients were the good guys. I'm not convinced at all.
I also wondered about the Ancient technology and the need to use the ATA gene. The theory put forth on the show was that their technology had been designed to only operate with the ATA gene to stop the Wraith from using it. I do wonder, however, whether it was also to stop the inferior human race from using it. Sort of the ultimate class system.
You can use the gate, because we need to allow our pets to move around, but you don't get to play with any of the big toys.
And why do some humans have the ATA gene? Yeah... kind of worrying, isn't it? Suggests that there are some Ancients who were not averse to slumming it, as it were.
Which puts John's ancestry into perspective, doesn't it?
I just get that vibe from them, so, yes, I can well believe that the Ancients would be willing to bump off the humans in order to get rid of the Wraith. It seems to be keeping in character for them - leaving their messes behind and screw anyone who isn't us or one of the 'elder' races. After all, if the cure for AIDs was found tomorrow, and it involved killing off all chimpanzees, what do we think would happen?
But the clincher, for me, is that I come back again and again to the same thought.
Why would any other race engineer a nanovirus that killed anyone without the ATA gene?
And onto squeeage.
Rodney was so fucking cool in this ep. If I wasn't already head over heels with him, and the actor that plays him, I would have fallen all over again. Mind you, I've been saying this after every episode since Hide and Seek so maybe you shouldn't take that as anything.
He was kickass and take charge and wonderfully vulnerable and human and connecting to his team and so The Man that it's perfectly obvious now (at least to me) that if Elizabeth is in charge of the overall expedition, and John is in charge of military personnel, then Rodney is the man in charge of the scientists.
He was giving them orders - there was no doubting that - and they were obeying him. From the very first scene, even before the shit hit the fan, and he continued to give orders - and have them listened to - after that. And he didn't hesitate to call for an emergency lockdown, which showed a huge amount of foresight and spine, and contrasts interestingly enough with John's attitude. I'd love to say that I thought John's actions were about the fact that his lover was in peril, but I strongly suspect John's actions were more to do with the fact that Elizabeth's orders couldn't possibly apply to him.
Ford was a doll in this one, young and scared and impulsive and he is only 25, fcol. We forget that sometimes, but to me it explains both his attitude in this and in The Eye. And Carson was competent and sympathetic but thankfully didn't grab centre stage. I like him better when he's supporting and providing wry humour.
Teyla was kick ass. She kicked John's ass, both figuratively and literally. Loved the scene with the sticks. She was cool, calm and confident, and she took John down with no effort and then chastised him for not practicing. And it didn't come across as forced or 'we've got to stick this chick in a bikini and go for 'hot amazon'.
And then she told him, politely and in no uncertain terms, that he shouldn't have disregarded Elizabeth like that.
Which brings me onto my sticking point. Weir.
Now I like Weir. I think she's human and flawed and vulnerable and very out of her depth. So I foresaw this confrontation between Elizabeth and John coming from a mile off. But am I the only one who thinks that she brought it largely on herself?
She doesn't see John as a subordinate. She's been using him as a confidante, someone to shore her up when she's feeling vulnerable, and in doing so she's shown him her belly.
She's deferred to him on more than one occasion, has given him his head, and, even worse, has left decisions that she doesn't want to make to him, like the Hoffans and their use of Steve, and the trading of information and explosives to the Genii, both of which were very bad decisions. Which isn't entirely John's fault, but it does demonstrate a) John's tendency to rush into things and b) Elizabeth's inability or unwillingness to stop him.
She's out of her depth, and it shows, to be blunt. And worse, she's abrogated responsibility to him on more than one occasion, and therefore, while John shouldn't have done what he did, he's seen the side of Elizabeth that no one else has - the vacillitating side. The indecisive side. The 'weak' side. If you hand someone that power - if you place that burden on them because you can't or don't want to deal with it - you can hardly bitch when it backfires on you.
The confrontation was inevitable. She's simply not strong enough to rein him in. And given that, it's hardly surprising that this man - this man who she has been warned, in advance, will disobey orders if he disagrees with them and yet who she has still deferred to in situations where she doesn't want to deal and in fact has told him she doesn't want to deal - disobeys her. And is wrong again.
She should have been strong. She shouldn't have needed Teyla to kick his ass - she should have done it herself. She should have refused to power up the section so that John could get into it. She should have told him to wait there, and see if Petersen forced the doors and got himself out of the quarantined area, and then told him to deal with it. And if he wouldn't, she should have told Teyla, as the woman on the spot, to take him down.
I bet Teyla would have done it too.
By doing refusing to give into him again, she risked him ordering Bates to override her again, but by giving into him again, she lost control of the situation, and nothing in their little conversation at the end has resolved that.
In fact, I think she lost control of the situation weeks ago, and I'm not convinced that she can get it back.
It's an interesting dynamic, and it makes for an interesting tension and interesting characters, but it makes Elizabeth a poor leader, imho.
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I think you're right that she was taken in by John's charm. John is a nice guy - but he's arrogant on occasion, has an inability to see his own flaws and is too cocky by half.
You know, when I saw the pilot I thought that Rodney was going to be her confidante, with that little exchange in front of the gate, where he rather awkwardly told her that she'd done the right thing. Rodney would have been the far better choice, because Rodney isn't about powerstruggles in the way that it's going on between Weir and Sheppard. He's arrogant in his own way too, but he's interested in the science, not the 'who runs things'.
And there was that little sympatico moment when he reached out in spite of himself.
I hope they resolve it. I really do. I just don't know how they can.
Elizabeth needs to reach out to Teyla. She could have a valuable friend and ally there, someone who is capable of filling the confidant role, if only Weir could see it.
Yes, she would be perfect, but I wonder if her 'alienness' is putting Weir off? I don't mean that in a racist/speciest sense, but in the sense that she's not quite trusted because they still don't know what the Athosians are capable of, and they still don't know what drives them as a people. I would have hoped they were beyond that after Suspicion but I'm not so sure.
And, of course, femmeslash :)
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/nods/ Which is fascinating, and makes for such an interesting contrast with Rodney, who, while equally arrogant, is far more aware of his own weaknesses, including his arrogance. Being with him is going to be good for John.
John is absolutely convinced that his plan is the best plan, and I think he's spent too much of his life relying on his looks and charm to get him out of his fuck-ups.
Also, though, I think he hates being helpless. He doesn't have the patience to stand by and let others handle things, except interestingly Rodney. Which weakens him as a leader, because sometimes you have to let others handle things. Delegation is not John's strong point.
Rodney would have been the far better choice, because Rodney isn't about powerstruggles in the way that it's going on between Weir and Sheppard. He's arrogant in his own way too, but he's interested in the science, not the 'who runs things'.
All true, but Rodney isn't that interested in the kinds of problems Elizabeth is facing, either. He doesn't care about the ethical dilemmas of experimenting on a sentient being or trading weaponry. He's happy to build the weapon, because that's science and engineering and fun and he's been able to do it since he was 12, but the ethics...
Also, he's not big with the people knowledge so negotiating the tensions and subtleties inherent in a group like this would not be his strength.
Although I do think him leading the scientists is damn cool. And he has Zelenka backing him up.
Yes, she would be perfect, but I wonder if her 'alienness' is putting Weir off? I don't mean that in a racist/speciest sense, but in the sense that she's not quite trusted because they still don't know what the Athosians are capable of, and they still don't know what drives them as a people. I would have hoped they were beyond that after Suspicion but I'm not so sure.
I do think there might be some racism there, or maybe some sexism. Women are just as conditioned to see men as leaders and as stronger as men are. Being a woman and undoubtedly a feminist doesn't exempt Weir from being sexist.
And, of course, femmeslash
Oh, yeah. Selenay has written a couple of nice Teyla/Weir pre-slash pieces if you're interested.
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Yep. And yet apparently keeps screwing up, which means no one has hit him with a big enough clue stick to teach him that his way is not always the best way.
All true, but Rodney isn't that interested in the kinds of problems Elizabeth is facing, either. He doesn't care about the ethical dilemmas of experimenting on a sentient being or trading weaponry. He's happy to build the weapon, because that's science and engineering and fun and he's been able to do it since he was 12, but the ethics...
Also true, but Rodney at least would try to listen. He wouldn't always be good at it, but he would try because he tries for Elizabeth.
And really, Elizabeth doesn't need anyone to do more than listen to her, make sounds in the appropriate places and give her a hug when she's scared. She definitely doesn't need someone to tell her what to do.
Or rather, her personality seems to be shaping up to be of someone who needs someone to tell her what to do when she doesn't want to make a decision herself, but in her capacity as leader that's the last thing she needs.
You could argue that Rodney would be good for her in that respect to. He'd listen to her, but he wouldn't tell her what to do. Would, in fact, tell her with varying degrees of pissyness and snarkiness, depending on how much pressure she was putting on him, that he's not going to.
John gives Elizabeth the answers. He steps in when she doesn't want to. And I still think that she's relied on that in a lot of situations, hence the current mess.
It's of both their makings, given their personality types as demonstrated so far.
I'm just left with this impression of Elizabeth being a weak leader and John being able to exploit that, neither of which is good for Atlantis as a whole.
Selenay has written a couple of nice Teyla/Weir pre-slash pieces if you're interested.
I've read them :) but thanks for the heads up.